However, there is a big difference between a community that chooses to put itself in harm's way for a higher cause (whether you agree with that cause or not is irrelevant), and a community that's just irresponsible, doesn't care at all about simple safety rules, and, even though they know it happens all the time, keeps providing their youth with opportunities to harm themselves and others.
The lack of human safety in the Chareidi community doesn't step from an ideology or cause, it's a lack of responsibility and leadership.
Of course it's an ideology. It's the ideology that Hashem always protects so we don't need hishtadlus. Its an evil ideology. But it has probably killed less than the Dati.
I think you are trying to thread various incompatible narratives. Most importantly, the view that the IDF casualties are unusually high is an Israeli Right-Wing hallucination based on their belief that it would be both proper and feasible to simply exterminate the population of Gaza from the air. Even a casual comparison with the Vietnam War you brought up shows that the IDF does a really good job of minimising its own military casualties.
There's a side issue that the DL community are weirdly proud when one of their best students dies and don't seem to understand that this is not a very good advertisement for their approach, but that it isn't even Kookism really. Gushniks are just the same.
In general, I think American Charedim should just stop seeing the whole Israel-Zionism issue through the prism of their internal disputes. You don't like Lakewood extremists; this shouldn't really have any impact on your view of Israeli politics.
It is entirely irrelevant even if the unnecessary deaths are way lower than any other army. My main point is the disproportionate deaths of RZs which I believe is because the army is biased against them. If it is indeed true that the cause of the difference is solely because they volunteer more, something I doubt, it is still an insane indictment of the RZ hashkafa that they value life so little and RZ bloggers like Slifkin and Harry should shut up about how immoral Chareidim are.
This is all true regardless of how awesomely low the iDFs death rate is vis a vis others.
There's simply no comparison between deaths caused by a refusal to enact even basic crowd control measures (or similar stupid sh*t) to deaths in combat that a group experiences more of because they disproportionately volunteer for the dangerous roles that contribute to the defence that all Israelis benefits from.
Well, in that case, I gave you too much credit. The idea that DLs are dying too much because the army discriminates against them is an even more crazy Right-Wing hallucination. I'd say it qualifies as malicious libel. J's comments are well-put and to the point and you should take them on board.
I'll add that one of the beautiful things about the IDF is the ethos where a captain who rose through the ranks by being more competent will put his life at risk for his own troops. You can be like Russia and use your criminals and wasters as cannon fodder, and in some ways that's better, but in the medium to long term it eats out the military culture from the inside and you end up in a very ugly place.
I agree that DL leaders should think about ways to take some off the risk burden from their best members instead of being proud when they die, but this would have to be a low-key, private initiative.
Ultimately, though, if Israel wants fewer soldiers to die, it has to devote real resources and effort in pursuit of a peaceful resolution, instead of getting high off its own hasbara supply and thinking it already did everything it can do and it didn't work so endless war it is.
This part I agree with. Definitely, the way to improve Charedi society is not to try and make it more like DL society. They are likely to emulate all of the DL society's flaws without emulating its virtues. That's what has happened so far with Nachal Charedi. The most plausible way to improve Israeli Charedi society is to make it more like American Charedi society, which means more segregation and less engagement with the army.
Very fresh take on this complicated draft issue. Not sure if I agree or not, have to think about it. But you make points that I've yet to hear anyone else raise before. Very good.
“Promoting the draft is essentially telling religious boys to be disproportionately killed.”
This is a bad argument. Yes, Religious Zionist boys are over-represented in combat units, and yes, they therefore die at higher rates. That’s what happens when you volunteer for combat roles. Hardly a moral indictment.
If you want to argue that the IDF is often disorganised and that some combat service is more dangerous than it should be, fine. That may be true in some cases. It still doesn’t get you where you want to go. “More dangerous than ideal” is not the same thing as “wrongly killing people,” and it certainly doesn’t make encouraging combat service equivalent to negligence or abuse.
The argument turns on how “preventable” is being used. A death becomes “preventable” simply because the soldier didn’t need to be there at all. That’s an objection to combat service *as such*, rather than a critique of ineptitude. Don’t pretend you’re making a narrow argument about mismanagement.
The standard critique of the IDF, including its own doctrine, is that it goes out of its way to minimise soldier casualties, often at the expense of Palestinian civilian risk. That doesn’t mean the army is well run; it clearly isn’t always. But it does mean the picture of it casually burning through soldiers is a fantasy.
Strip it down and your claim is essentially: people who step forward to do the most dangerous work die more often, and therefore they shouldn’t step forward. That’s hardly a moral insight. It’s an argument for opting out, while continuing to benefit from the fact that others don’t.
The U.S. example is not analogous: American Jews who volunteered for the U.S. army were one group among many in a state whose defence did not hinge on any particular community’s ethos. Their service didn’t carry existential weight. Israel is different. It’s a project whose survival depends on sustained willingness to serve, including in combat. There would not be 1.4 million Jews living Charedi lives in Israel today if other Jews hadn’t been willing, over decades, to shoulder the defence burden.
Saying Religious Zionists should “just volunteer like everyone else” assumes there’s some neutral baseline of service enthusiasm to converge on. There isn’t. In every army, some groups supply more combat soldiers than others. Flattening that enthusiasm misses the point. You're criticising people for stepping forward at all, on the grounds that doing so carries risk.
If the claim is that Religious Zionist culture sometimes over-valorises combat roles, fine, that’s an internal critique about prudence and tone. But once you're framing disproportionate participation as a moral failure, that's crossing the line into free-riding. You’re saying: be less willing so the risk gets redistributed, without saying who is meant to pick it up.
The U.S. could absorb that kind of normalisation because no one group was decisive. Israel cannot. In a small state with a permanent security burden, discouraging the people most inclined to do the dangerous work just shifts the burden onto someone else.
I'm clearly arguing the issue is that RZ disproportionately die, regardless of how little death rate there is in the army.
If it's solely because RZ disproportionately volunteer, something I doubt, then it's an insane moral indictment of the RZ hashkafa and any RZs should shut down their blogs or stop blogging about anything else until that changes.
That still isn’t an argument. You’re asserting that disproportionate death is ipso facto a moral indictment and treating disagreement with that premise as insanity. Do you have any data showing that RZ soldiers in combat units die at higher rates than non-religious soldiers in the same units? Until you do, this is just assertion.
If RZs die disproportionately because they disproportionately volunteer for combat, then all you’ve said is that volunteering for combat in Israel is itself morally suspect. Simply repeating the disparity doesn’t establish it.
"That's all I need to show that Dati Leumi hashkafa is dangerous."
I still don't think you're grasping the point J made. To simplify, you can narrow it down to is most granular level. My aunt sent her 3 boys to the army. They went to dangerous combat roles. She raised them to do so, because she believes that defending millions of fellow Jews from enemies who would love to incinerate them is very noble and holy etc. Is she a 'dangerous' mother? I guess in some weird trivial sense she is. But it doesn't strike me as a sane way to frame it. By the same sort of reductionist reasoning you could just as well claim that Matan Abergil https://www.timesofisrael.com/cpl-matan-abergil-19-used-body-to-shield-6-friends-from-grenade/ was 'suicidal' and write a whole post about how
What does that mean in this context? The entire IDF could disband and there would be less dying for a few weeks until the slaughter begins. In the context of a country that is under existential threat from genocidal maniacs, I again assert that you have no right, knowledge, or expertise to meaningfully determine what will actually contribute to fewer deaths in any time frame longer than it took you to write this blog post.
In theory, I agree with you about the DL RabbiS and the IDF. . But as far as I can see, the only reason why this country continues to exist is because of the DL rabbis and similar people with the crazy positive attitude to things. If it was up to the left or the haredim or the arisim, we would’ve collapsed a long time ago
I've never so viscerally agreed with a post as with this one.
I didn't know that about the IDF, that religious soldiers are killed more often, but I did speak with a former special forces soldier from the IDF, and he ripped the IDF top brass.
They would set up missions that were suicidal from the get-go, and they would purposefully force soldiers into compromising situations for no reason. forcing yichud with women when it wasn't necessary, many such cases.
There are real sickos in the IDF leadership, who still want to eradicate any semblance of Torah values they can.
Israel (not Eretz Yisroel) has become a convoluted political cesspool like every other Western country. Israel wanted so much to be like America, and now they got it.
"If you play stupid games, you win stupid "prizes"—Charlie Kirk
Contrary to this ridiculous libel, the only IDF general with credible accusations of endangering soldiers lives made against him is Yehuda Vach a right-wing settler.
I quoted someone who agrees with you, but I think you are both missing one point.
If you see yourself as separate from the larger society, and view the public resources as sources of conflict between parties, you should certainly fight to ensure you receive the largest portion.
However, the Dati-Leumi community is not in the same boat as you, they don't think like you. They see themselves as part of the larger Israeli society, and their leaders see no reason to ensure the deaths occur somewhere else, in the 'other' group. If an equal number of Jewish deaths are to occur, it is not their job to ensure that the ones dying are from another community.
We, too, believe the same thing. We don't think Charedim shouldn't die and Chilonim should. We believe that learning Torah is more important to us, both in the short term and in the long term. But Chilonim who learn Torah, if that were possible, should also be permitted to defer army service.
Until you show me that the number of deaths is higher because of the DL leadership, the comparison is inaccurate.
לכאורה, הם לא היו יושבים יחד לקפה בחיים. שמואל אייזנטל, החרדי מהפלג שרואה במדי צה״ל בגדי טומאה, וצביקה מור, המתנחל שרואה ב-M16 תשמיש קדושה. אבל תקלפו את השכבה החיצונית, את הכיפה השחורה מול הסרוגה, ותגלו שהם האנשים הכי קרובים במדינת ישראל. הם אחים בדם. תרתי משמע.
שניהם משחקים באותו משחק פוקר מטורף, ושניהם מהמרים על אותו ז׳יטון בדיוק: הילדים שלהם.
אייזנטל עומד מעל הקבר הטרי של בנו, שנדרס כי חסם אוטובוס, ואומר בלי למצמץ: עדיף ככה. עדיף מת וטהור מאשר חי ומגוייס. המוות הוא אופציה עדיפה על פגיעה באידיאולוגיה. ומור? מור מיישר מבט למצלמה ואומר על בנו שבמנהרות: המדינה קודמת. הניצחון המוחלט קודם לנשימה של הילד שלי. שיחכה.
אנחנו עומדים מהצד, החילונים ה״נאיביים״ עם הנטייה המוזרה הזאת לאהוב את הילדים שלנו חיים ונושמים, ולא מבינים שאנחנו הדיסוננס. אנחנו הרעש רקע בסימפוניה המשיחית הזאת. אנחנו תקועים בקונספציה המיושנת שצבא נועד להגן על אזרחים, בזמן שהמדינה מנוהלת על ידי אנשים שעבורם אזרחים הם בסך הכל חומר בעירה ל״תיקון עולם״.
וזה לא בשוליים. זאת הממשלה. זאת הרוח שממלאת חלק מהמפרשים ומשדרת הפיקוד בצה״ל. חלק מהקצינים של הילדים שלנו גדלים על ברכי תורת ההקרבה הזאת. הם לומדים שהחיים הם אמצעי, לא מטרה.
רק בשבוע שעבר קיבלנו תצוגת תכלית בלב משכן הכנסת עשו שם סלקציה לדמעות. הזמנה ל-VIP, אבל רק למשפחות שכולות ש״מרימות״. אלו שמוכנות להפוך את האובדן שלהן לדלק במנוע של הקואליציה. המסר עבר חד וצלול: יש שכול נכון, ויש שכול מיותר. אם המוות של הילד שלכם לא מגיע עם נאום מוטיבציה שמתיישב בול עם דף המסרים אז הוא פשוט לא נספר.
אז עכשיו בואו נעשה רגע חשבון נפש קר ואכזרי: אם אבא אחד מוכן שהבן שלו ימות העיקר שלא יתגייס, ואבא שני מוכן שהבן שלו יירקב בשבי העיקר שלא נעצור את המלחמה, מה נראה לכם שהם חושבים על הילדים שלנו?
אם הדם של בשר מבשרם הוא מטבע עובר לסוחר, כסף קטן בקופה של ״נצח ישראל״ או ״עולם התורה״ כמה שווה בעיניהם הדם של הילד החילוני שלכם מתל אביב?
אנחנו שולחים את הילדים שלנו לצבא כדי שיגנו עלינו מפני האויב מבחוץ, אבל הם מקבלים פקודות מיותר ויותר אנשים שהוכיחו, בקולם ובמעשיהם, שאין להם שום בעיה עם עקדת יצחק. להפך. הם רק מחכים שמישהו יגיש להם את המאכלת. והפעם, אין שום איל שמחכה בסבך.
In an interview published today, R. Moshe Lichtenstein, Rosh Yeshiva of Gush, describes what happened after October 7:
“The yeshiva emptied out. Normally, we have hundreds of people here, but from October 7 onwards, people from the third year above were in the single digits. On one level, it was inspiring. A major component of the hesder paradigm and its justification of a shorter service is that everyone serves in combat units, unless they are physically disqualified by the army, and that when there’s a war, everyone goes at a moment’s notice.”
So you're wrong for the reasons I laid out yesterday, but you're also missing something more basic: combat-unit volunteering is what justifies (in the eyes of hesder proponents) a shortened service and extended learning time to be claimed in good conscience, which is a religious goal in itself.
I agree with a lot of it, but I take Issue with the assertion that DL are being killed on purpose. From what I understand, DL are just much more ideological about Yishuv Eretz Yisroel/Milchames Mitzvah and will therefore disproportionately volunteer for combat, as opposed to many Chilonim who just want to do the easiest job possible.
I agree, though, that this Hashkafah, at least in the extreme, is very problematic, as It glorifies war and killing and martyrdom. It Is a culture where, at least in certain segments, songs about נקמה and even about burning Arab villages, are commonplace.
A perfect example of what you're bringing out, is a story I heard, about a DL boy, whose brother died RL in combat, and he was therefore Pattur from serving. He wanted to serve anyway, but his mother was too frightened. A prominent DL Rav told him to serve anyway, against his mothers wishes. This story, to me, really highlights the extremes of DL ideology.
Also, you touched on this briefly, but the attitude in parts of the DL world to Settlements, is also very dangerous. Some leaders in that world encourage students to live in very dangerous areas, exposing their kids to significant threats of terrorism, for the sake of their ideology. Along these lines, the consensus in the DL world is that It would be Assur to give up settlements even if it would be determined 100 percent, that It would lead to real peace. This is not true in the Charedi world.
In the comments, you write/imply that DL are specifically assigned to combat roles by the army which is biased against them and would rather them die than Chilonim. That's what I meant, but wasn't so clear.
“They view Israel hashkafically as any other country.” This is false. Charedim deny the religious legitimacy of the state when obligations are demanded of them, yet appeal to its Jewishness whenever they demand exemption. They insist that in a Jewish state one must not arrest Jews “for learning Torah” rather than serving in the army, a claim that only makes sense if the state’s Jewish character has normative force. Israel is treated as “just another country” only when compliance is required; when it comes to shielding Torah learners, it suddenly becomes a Jewish state with special duties toward them, but no reciprocal claim upon them.
All claims of the state's Jewish character are in the spirit of לשיטתך. I don't think anyone believes it.
The obligation of ערבות is all over the world, and if we could, we should have control over Judaism in other countries too. Sadly, אין בידינו להעמיד הדת על תלה, and as the story goes - בדוק ומנוסה. So we use other methods.
Where is 'arvus' defined in halochoh as controlling other people's Judaism or Judaic practice? There is a chiuv tochacha, or possibly chinuch for minors, but not 'arvus'.
Just like DL and the IDF, where Chareidim being drafted is based on it being like all other countries, but then defend the high death rate of religious soldiers because it is a Jewish country.
And it is entirely true the Chareidi hashkafa I quote here.
No, that’s not parallel. Charedim invoke Israel being “like any other country” to demand obligations from others (a draft), and then invoke it being a Jewish state to exempt themselves. That’s a one-way asymmetry.
Religious Zionists aren’t doing that. They’re not appealing to Israel’s Jewishness to justify higher deaths; they’re accepting higher risk because they volunteer for combat. That’s the opposite of special pleading.
And there is no “high death rate of religious soldiers” being defended here. You still haven’t shown higher mortality within the same units. All you’ve shown is self-selection into risk.
"If the IDF was run fully responsibly, that would be one thing. But its not. We see how the bus systems are run in Israel."
This is an incredibly dumb comparison. It's like saying that charedim poskim don't know how to learn, because just look at all the ridiculous things charedim write on substack.
"An eye-opening book just how badly the army is run was the 188th Crybaby Brigade by Joel Chasnoff."
Haven't read that book, but based on the description it sounds like he was a naïve American kid who didn't know a darn thing about the military he was joining. Dati Leumi kids have siblings and parents who've fought in previous wars, and most know of people who've fallen in battle. They know what they're getting into.
I have some knowledge of military structures etc but nothing specific to the Israeli army, though I could ask a few questions of those that I know.
The majority of a military isn't the fighting force (known as the tip of the spear), it's the logistical chain behind them, the people that run the bases, train the recruits, etc. What Israelis will often denigrate as a "jobnik." It's the motivated and capable that you want fighting, not the one's who don't want to be there. And the most eligible will be those ideologically aligned and supportive. To extend your comparison to the US army, the vast majority of combat deaths are white rural conservative Americans. How irresponsible must Fox News be for indoctrinating them to value combat service!
Naturally, the people who volunteer for more dangerous roles and missions will be those motivated most strongly, and the DL fits that to a tee. That's not a failing on their part, that's literally the system working as intended. And if you accept that they view the current state as a predecessor for the fulfillment of messianic prophecy, then the loss suffered is no lesser than any death al Kiddush Hashem in their eyes, and likely far greater. In a dangerous mission, someone will inevitably die, but the ones who see that death as noble are the ones most likely to be in position to make that sacrifice than others. That's not "preventable deaths," that's selecting yourself in place of others to die.
I'm not saying I agree with DL (Rabbi Lamm would be disgusted with their extremist messianism ideology), I'm acknowledging that they are acting in accordance with their values, and what you see as "preventable death" really isn't preventable. Combat is inherently dangerous, and having someone CHOOSE combat is safer than people being forced into combat units to fill the holes. I'm not saying there right, I'm saying your argument doesn't logically hold
If you say so. I think it does but you disagree. You say the deaths are preventable, I point out that they aren't, ergo not more dangerous. You say that they volunteer for combat, I say that's the point, so it's not irresponsible within their frame.
What's dangerous about their ideology isn't their willingness to sign up for combat, it's the willingness to engage in violence outside of the structure of the military, which is something that all extremist groups share, including the Charedim.
You're welcome to mourn the waste of some of their youth dying in the military. But it's what they want to do. Those are the choices they have made, because they would rather die protecting EY more than other people do.
They want to do it, because of what their DL Rabbonim tell them. Just as Charedim are willing to endanger themselves by laying in the street, because of what their Rabbonim say. That's Ash's point, I think.
And my point is it's at least a defensible position within Judaism regardless of whether you agree with their hashkafa, and that the argument that it's resulting in NEEDLESS death is unfounded.
I agree with many of the points you raise.
However, there is a big difference between a community that chooses to put itself in harm's way for a higher cause (whether you agree with that cause or not is irrelevant), and a community that's just irresponsible, doesn't care at all about simple safety rules, and, even though they know it happens all the time, keeps providing their youth with opportunities to harm themselves and others.
The lack of human safety in the Chareidi community doesn't step from an ideology or cause, it's a lack of responsibility and leadership.
Of course it's an ideology. It's the ideology that Hashem always protects so we don't need hishtadlus. Its an evil ideology. But it has probably killed less than the Dati.
I agree that they have that ideology.
What I was saying is that the violence and self endangerment is 'for' or in 'the name of' that ideology, it just allows them to be irresponsible.
I hear the chilik. I don't know if it's mechalek
A distinction without a difference perhaps...
If the Dati Leumi refused who would do it?
*stem from
I think you are trying to thread various incompatible narratives. Most importantly, the view that the IDF casualties are unusually high is an Israeli Right-Wing hallucination based on their belief that it would be both proper and feasible to simply exterminate the population of Gaza from the air. Even a casual comparison with the Vietnam War you brought up shows that the IDF does a really good job of minimising its own military casualties.
There's a side issue that the DL community are weirdly proud when one of their best students dies and don't seem to understand that this is not a very good advertisement for their approach, but that it isn't even Kookism really. Gushniks are just the same.
In general, I think American Charedim should just stop seeing the whole Israel-Zionism issue through the prism of their internal disputes. You don't like Lakewood extremists; this shouldn't really have any impact on your view of Israeli politics.
You thinking that they are unusually high, a claim I make nowhere in this post, is a maskil Bina hallucination. My claim solely is that RZ deaths are.
It is entirely irrelevant even if the unnecessary deaths are way lower than any other army. My main point is the disproportionate deaths of RZs which I believe is because the army is biased against them. If it is indeed true that the cause of the difference is solely because they volunteer more, something I doubt, it is still an insane indictment of the RZ hashkafa that they value life so little and RZ bloggers like Slifkin and Harry should shut up about how immoral Chareidim are.
This is all true regardless of how awesomely low the iDFs death rate is vis a vis others.
There's simply no comparison between deaths caused by a refusal to enact even basic crowd control measures (or similar stupid sh*t) to deaths in combat that a group experiences more of because they disproportionately volunteer for the dangerous roles that contribute to the defence that all Israelis benefits from.
Well, in that case, I gave you too much credit. The idea that DLs are dying too much because the army discriminates against them is an even more crazy Right-Wing hallucination. I'd say it qualifies as malicious libel. J's comments are well-put and to the point and you should take them on board.
I'll add that one of the beautiful things about the IDF is the ethos where a captain who rose through the ranks by being more competent will put his life at risk for his own troops. You can be like Russia and use your criminals and wasters as cannon fodder, and in some ways that's better, but in the medium to long term it eats out the military culture from the inside and you end up in a very ugly place.
I agree that DL leaders should think about ways to take some off the risk burden from their best members instead of being proud when they die, but this would have to be a low-key, private initiative.
Ultimately, though, if Israel wants fewer soldiers to die, it has to devote real resources and effort in pursuit of a peaceful resolution, instead of getting high off its own hasbara supply and thinking it already did everything it can do and it didn't work so endless war it is.
Well the last paragraph is also a DL hashkafa consequence.
This part I agree with. Definitely, the way to improve Charedi society is not to try and make it more like DL society. They are likely to emulate all of the DL society's flaws without emulating its virtues. That's what has happened so far with Nachal Charedi. The most plausible way to improve Israeli Charedi society is to make it more like American Charedi society, which means more segregation and less engagement with the army.
I also notice you don't dispute the stats.
It's not about valuing life little. It's about being ready to die al kidush hashem.
The second paragraph is my main point.
That's all I need to show that Dati Leumi hashkafa is dangerous. Because it shows high self selection into risk.
So maybe Slifkin and Maryles should find a new hashkafa to blog about.
Very fresh take on this complicated draft issue. Not sure if I agree or not, have to think about it. But you make points that I've yet to hear anyone else raise before. Very good.
“Promoting the draft is essentially telling religious boys to be disproportionately killed.”
This is a bad argument. Yes, Religious Zionist boys are over-represented in combat units, and yes, they therefore die at higher rates. That’s what happens when you volunteer for combat roles. Hardly a moral indictment.
If you want to argue that the IDF is often disorganised and that some combat service is more dangerous than it should be, fine. That may be true in some cases. It still doesn’t get you where you want to go. “More dangerous than ideal” is not the same thing as “wrongly killing people,” and it certainly doesn’t make encouraging combat service equivalent to negligence or abuse.
The argument turns on how “preventable” is being used. A death becomes “preventable” simply because the soldier didn’t need to be there at all. That’s an objection to combat service *as such*, rather than a critique of ineptitude. Don’t pretend you’re making a narrow argument about mismanagement.
The standard critique of the IDF, including its own doctrine, is that it goes out of its way to minimise soldier casualties, often at the expense of Palestinian civilian risk. That doesn’t mean the army is well run; it clearly isn’t always. But it does mean the picture of it casually burning through soldiers is a fantasy.
Strip it down and your claim is essentially: people who step forward to do the most dangerous work die more often, and therefore they shouldn’t step forward. That’s hardly a moral insight. It’s an argument for opting out, while continuing to benefit from the fact that others don’t.
The U.S. example is not analogous: American Jews who volunteered for the U.S. army were one group among many in a state whose defence did not hinge on any particular community’s ethos. Their service didn’t carry existential weight. Israel is different. It’s a project whose survival depends on sustained willingness to serve, including in combat. There would not be 1.4 million Jews living Charedi lives in Israel today if other Jews hadn’t been willing, over decades, to shoulder the defence burden.
Saying Religious Zionists should “just volunteer like everyone else” assumes there’s some neutral baseline of service enthusiasm to converge on. There isn’t. In every army, some groups supply more combat soldiers than others. Flattening that enthusiasm misses the point. You're criticising people for stepping forward at all, on the grounds that doing so carries risk.
If the claim is that Religious Zionist culture sometimes over-valorises combat roles, fine, that’s an internal critique about prudence and tone. But once you're framing disproportionate participation as a moral failure, that's crossing the line into free-riding. You’re saying: be less willing so the risk gets redistributed, without saying who is meant to pick it up.
The U.S. could absorb that kind of normalisation because no one group was decisive. Israel cannot. In a small state with a permanent security burden, discouraging the people most inclined to do the dangerous work just shifts the burden onto someone else.
I'm clearly arguing the issue is that RZ disproportionately die, regardless of how little death rate there is in the army.
If it's solely because RZ disproportionately volunteer, something I doubt, then it's an insane moral indictment of the RZ hashkafa and any RZs should shut down their blogs or stop blogging about anything else until that changes.
That still isn’t an argument. You’re asserting that disproportionate death is ipso facto a moral indictment and treating disagreement with that premise as insanity. Do you have any data showing that RZ soldiers in combat units die at higher rates than non-religious soldiers in the same units? Until you do, this is just assertion.
If RZs die disproportionately because they disproportionately volunteer for combat, then all you’ve said is that volunteering for combat in Israel is itself morally suspect. Simply repeating the disparity doesn’t establish it.
That's all I need to show that Dati Leumi hashkafa is dangerous. Because it shows high self selection into risk.
So maybe Slifkin and Maryles should find a new hashkafa to blog about.
"That's all I need to show that Dati Leumi hashkafa is dangerous."
I still don't think you're grasping the point J made. To simplify, you can narrow it down to is most granular level. My aunt sent her 3 boys to the army. They went to dangerous combat roles. She raised them to do so, because she believes that defending millions of fellow Jews from enemies who would love to incinerate them is very noble and holy etc. Is she a 'dangerous' mother? I guess in some weird trivial sense she is. But it doesn't strike me as a sane way to frame it. By the same sort of reductionist reasoning you could just as well claim that Matan Abergil https://www.timesofisrael.com/cpl-matan-abergil-19-used-body-to-shield-6-friends-from-grenade/ was 'suicidal' and write a whole post about how
the IDF encourages suicide. (-hey, they're just like charedi gedolim biographies! https://daastorah.substack.com/p/new-gadol-biography-valorizes-suicide )
Why would a religious Zionist be anything other than proud of the higher volunteer rate for combat roles in the RZ community?
If it's a mitzvah and a Zechut to defend the land, then what does it matter if more die doing it?
How do you think that people get assigned to various roles in the military?
Either they volunteer or they are assigned.
If the former, its a damning assessment of the hashkafa.
If the latter, its a damning assessment of the IDF over sending DL to situations where they are more likely to die.
who should take combat roles in a war? Is it more halachically acceptable for areligious Jews to die in higher numbers?
This is a critique on leadership. Dati Leadership should make sure their community dies less. Do you disagree with that?
What does that mean in this context? The entire IDF could disband and there would be less dying for a few weeks until the slaughter begins. In the context of a country that is under existential threat from genocidal maniacs, I again assert that you have no right, knowledge, or expertise to meaningfully determine what will actually contribute to fewer deaths in any time frame longer than it took you to write this blog post.
In theory, I agree with you about the DL RabbiS and the IDF. . But as far as I can see, the only reason why this country continues to exist is because of the DL rabbis and similar people with the crazy positive attitude to things. If it was up to the left or the haredim or the arisim, we would’ve collapsed a long time ago
.
I've never so viscerally agreed with a post as with this one.
I didn't know that about the IDF, that religious soldiers are killed more often, but I did speak with a former special forces soldier from the IDF, and he ripped the IDF top brass.
They would set up missions that were suicidal from the get-go, and they would purposefully force soldiers into compromising situations for no reason. forcing yichud with women when it wasn't necessary, many such cases.
There are real sickos in the IDF leadership, who still want to eradicate any semblance of Torah values they can.
Israel (not Eretz Yisroel) has become a convoluted political cesspool like every other Western country. Israel wanted so much to be like America, and now they got it.
"If you play stupid games, you win stupid "prizes"—Charlie Kirk
That Kirk quote explains his death so perfectly.
yep,
All around I see everyone playing stupid games, even myself sometimes.
I've been wondering why...
Why do we play games like this? And I am sure many don't even think it's a stupid game, but Emes.
I think maybe because it's easier than having to live rightly and learn the sugya of life properly?
i dont know...
Contrary to this ridiculous libel, the only IDF general with credible accusations of endangering soldiers lives made against him is Yehuda Vach a right-wing settler.
Ok. You know better...
Sorry for not taking an Israeli former special forces soldier's word.
Perhaps he's just lying to me because... reasons.
Maybe he's mentally disturbed.
I quoted someone who agrees with you, but I think you are both missing one point.
If you see yourself as separate from the larger society, and view the public resources as sources of conflict between parties, you should certainly fight to ensure you receive the largest portion.
However, the Dati-Leumi community is not in the same boat as you, they don't think like you. They see themselves as part of the larger Israeli society, and their leaders see no reason to ensure the deaths occur somewhere else, in the 'other' group. If an equal number of Jewish deaths are to occur, it is not their job to ensure that the ones dying are from another community.
We, too, believe the same thing. We don't think Charedim shouldn't die and Chilonim should. We believe that learning Torah is more important to us, both in the short term and in the long term. But Chilonim who learn Torah, if that were possible, should also be permitted to defer army service.
Until you show me that the number of deaths is higher because of the DL leadership, the comparison is inaccurate.
This is a fair point and a good one.
Here https://x.com/ShperlingAmir/status/2010918555072573587
someone makes your point
לכאורה, הם לא היו יושבים יחד לקפה בחיים. שמואל אייזנטל, החרדי מהפלג שרואה במדי צה״ל בגדי טומאה, וצביקה מור, המתנחל שרואה ב-M16 תשמיש קדושה. אבל תקלפו את השכבה החיצונית, את הכיפה השחורה מול הסרוגה, ותגלו שהם האנשים הכי קרובים במדינת ישראל. הם אחים בדם. תרתי משמע.
שניהם משחקים באותו משחק פוקר מטורף, ושניהם מהמרים על אותו ז׳יטון בדיוק: הילדים שלהם.
אייזנטל עומד מעל הקבר הטרי של בנו, שנדרס כי חסם אוטובוס, ואומר בלי למצמץ: עדיף ככה. עדיף מת וטהור מאשר חי ומגוייס. המוות הוא אופציה עדיפה על פגיעה באידיאולוגיה. ומור? מור מיישר מבט למצלמה ואומר על בנו שבמנהרות: המדינה קודמת. הניצחון המוחלט קודם לנשימה של הילד שלי. שיחכה.
אנחנו עומדים מהצד, החילונים ה״נאיביים״ עם הנטייה המוזרה הזאת לאהוב את הילדים שלנו חיים ונושמים, ולא מבינים שאנחנו הדיסוננס. אנחנו הרעש רקע בסימפוניה המשיחית הזאת. אנחנו תקועים בקונספציה המיושנת שצבא נועד להגן על אזרחים, בזמן שהמדינה מנוהלת על ידי אנשים שעבורם אזרחים הם בסך הכל חומר בעירה ל״תיקון עולם״.
וזה לא בשוליים. זאת הממשלה. זאת הרוח שממלאת חלק מהמפרשים ומשדרת הפיקוד בצה״ל. חלק מהקצינים של הילדים שלנו גדלים על ברכי תורת ההקרבה הזאת. הם לומדים שהחיים הם אמצעי, לא מטרה.
רק בשבוע שעבר קיבלנו תצוגת תכלית בלב משכן הכנסת עשו שם סלקציה לדמעות. הזמנה ל-VIP, אבל רק למשפחות שכולות ש״מרימות״. אלו שמוכנות להפוך את האובדן שלהן לדלק במנוע של הקואליציה. המסר עבר חד וצלול: יש שכול נכון, ויש שכול מיותר. אם המוות של הילד שלכם לא מגיע עם נאום מוטיבציה שמתיישב בול עם דף המסרים אז הוא פשוט לא נספר.
אז עכשיו בואו נעשה רגע חשבון נפש קר ואכזרי: אם אבא אחד מוכן שהבן שלו ימות העיקר שלא יתגייס, ואבא שני מוכן שהבן שלו יירקב בשבי העיקר שלא נעצור את המלחמה, מה נראה לכם שהם חושבים על הילדים שלנו?
אם הדם של בשר מבשרם הוא מטבע עובר לסוחר, כסף קטן בקופה של ״נצח ישראל״ או ״עולם התורה״ כמה שווה בעיניהם הדם של הילד החילוני שלכם מתל אביב?
אנחנו שולחים את הילדים שלנו לצבא כדי שיגנו עלינו מפני האויב מבחוץ, אבל הם מקבלים פקודות מיותר ויותר אנשים שהוכיחו, בקולם ובמעשיהם, שאין להם שום בעיה עם עקדת יצחק. להפך. הם רק מחכים שמישהו יגיש להם את המאכלת. והפעם, אין שום איל שמחכה בסבך.
Another point your post missed.
In an interview published today, R. Moshe Lichtenstein, Rosh Yeshiva of Gush, describes what happened after October 7:
“The yeshiva emptied out. Normally, we have hundreds of people here, but from October 7 onwards, people from the third year above were in the single digits. On one level, it was inspiring. A major component of the hesder paradigm and its justification of a shorter service is that everyone serves in combat units, unless they are physically disqualified by the army, and that when there’s a war, everyone goes at a moment’s notice.”
So you're wrong for the reasons I laid out yesterday, but you're also missing something more basic: combat-unit volunteering is what justifies (in the eyes of hesder proponents) a shortened service and extended learning time to be claimed in good conscience, which is a religious goal in itself.
Interesting article.
I agree with a lot of it, but I take Issue with the assertion that DL are being killed on purpose. From what I understand, DL are just much more ideological about Yishuv Eretz Yisroel/Milchames Mitzvah and will therefore disproportionately volunteer for combat, as opposed to many Chilonim who just want to do the easiest job possible.
I agree, though, that this Hashkafah, at least in the extreme, is very problematic, as It glorifies war and killing and martyrdom. It Is a culture where, at least in certain segments, songs about נקמה and even about burning Arab villages, are commonplace.
A perfect example of what you're bringing out, is a story I heard, about a DL boy, whose brother died RL in combat, and he was therefore Pattur from serving. He wanted to serve anyway, but his mother was too frightened. A prominent DL Rav told him to serve anyway, against his mothers wishes. This story, to me, really highlights the extremes of DL ideology.
Also, you touched on this briefly, but the attitude in parts of the DL world to Settlements, is also very dangerous. Some leaders in that world encourage students to live in very dangerous areas, exposing their kids to significant threats of terrorism, for the sake of their ideology. Along these lines, the consensus in the DL world is that It would be Assur to give up settlements even if it would be determined 100 percent, that It would lead to real peace. This is not true in the Charedi world.
Where do I say they are being killed on purpose?
In the comments, you write/imply that DL are specifically assigned to combat roles by the army which is biased against them and would rather them die than Chilonim. That's what I meant, but wasn't so clear.
well spoken
“They view Israel hashkafically as any other country.” This is false. Charedim deny the religious legitimacy of the state when obligations are demanded of them, yet appeal to its Jewishness whenever they demand exemption. They insist that in a Jewish state one must not arrest Jews “for learning Torah” rather than serving in the army, a claim that only makes sense if the state’s Jewish character has normative force. Israel is treated as “just another country” only when compliance is required; when it comes to shielding Torah learners, it suddenly becomes a Jewish state with special duties toward them, but no reciprocal claim upon them.
All claims of the state's Jewish character are in the spirit of לשיטתך. I don't think anyone believes it.
The obligation of ערבות is all over the world, and if we could, we should have control over Judaism in other countries too. Sadly, אין בידינו להעמיד הדת על תלה, and as the story goes - בדוק ומנוסה. So we use other methods.
Where is 'arvus' defined in halochoh as controlling other people's Judaism or Judaic practice? There is a chiuv tochacha, or possibly chinuch for minors, but not 'arvus'.
Just like DL and the IDF, where Chareidim being drafted is based on it being like all other countries, but then defend the high death rate of religious soldiers because it is a Jewish country.
And it is entirely true the Chareidi hashkafa I quote here.
The whole Jewish state thing is a 'leshitascha'.
No, that’s not parallel. Charedim invoke Israel being “like any other country” to demand obligations from others (a draft), and then invoke it being a Jewish state to exempt themselves. That’s a one-way asymmetry.
Religious Zionists aren’t doing that. They’re not appealing to Israel’s Jewishness to justify higher deaths; they’re accepting higher risk because they volunteer for combat. That’s the opposite of special pleading.
And there is no “high death rate of religious soldiers” being defended here. You still haven’t shown higher mortality within the same units. All you’ve shown is self-selection into risk.
When have Chareidim demanded a draft? Are you high?
It definitely isn't. Charedim are fully high off their own supply. Unfortunately, they are the only people getting high off it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?si=drJEabBnr28GATds&v=xkrv3uk6tg0&feature=youtu.be
"If the IDF was run fully responsibly, that would be one thing. But its not. We see how the bus systems are run in Israel."
This is an incredibly dumb comparison. It's like saying that charedim poskim don't know how to learn, because just look at all the ridiculous things charedim write on substack.
"An eye-opening book just how badly the army is run was the 188th Crybaby Brigade by Joel Chasnoff."
Haven't read that book, but based on the description it sounds like he was a naïve American kid who didn't know a darn thing about the military he was joining. Dati Leumi kids have siblings and parents who've fought in previous wars, and most know of people who've fallen in battle. They know what they're getting into.
By the way, here's a diary of the first few months of the war written by a (dati leumi) reservist.
https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%9E%D7%A1%D7%A4%D7%A8_%D7%90%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%99_7.10.23
My this has been an active thread!
I have some knowledge of military structures etc but nothing specific to the Israeli army, though I could ask a few questions of those that I know.
The majority of a military isn't the fighting force (known as the tip of the spear), it's the logistical chain behind them, the people that run the bases, train the recruits, etc. What Israelis will often denigrate as a "jobnik." It's the motivated and capable that you want fighting, not the one's who don't want to be there. And the most eligible will be those ideologically aligned and supportive. To extend your comparison to the US army, the vast majority of combat deaths are white rural conservative Americans. How irresponsible must Fox News be for indoctrinating them to value combat service!
Naturally, the people who volunteer for more dangerous roles and missions will be those motivated most strongly, and the DL fits that to a tee. That's not a failing on their part, that's literally the system working as intended. And if you accept that they view the current state as a predecessor for the fulfillment of messianic prophecy, then the loss suffered is no lesser than any death al Kiddush Hashem in their eyes, and likely far greater. In a dangerous mission, someone will inevitably die, but the ones who see that death as noble are the ones most likely to be in position to make that sacrifice than others. That's not "preventable deaths," that's selecting yourself in place of others to die.
I'm not saying I agree with DL (Rabbi Lamm would be disgusted with their extremist messianism ideology), I'm acknowledging that they are acting in accordance with their values, and what you see as "preventable death" really isn't preventable. Combat is inherently dangerous, and having someone CHOOSE combat is safer than people being forced into combat units to fill the holes. I'm not saying there right, I'm saying your argument doesn't logically hold
None of this argues with my point, which is the DL ideology is more dangerous and irresponsible than Chareidi.
If you say so. I think it does but you disagree. You say the deaths are preventable, I point out that they aren't, ergo not more dangerous. You say that they volunteer for combat, I say that's the point, so it's not irresponsible within their frame.
What's dangerous about their ideology isn't their willingness to sign up for combat, it's the willingness to engage in violence outside of the structure of the military, which is something that all extremist groups share, including the Charedim.
You're welcome to mourn the waste of some of their youth dying in the military. But it's what they want to do. Those are the choices they have made, because they would rather die protecting EY more than other people do.
They want to do it, because of what their DL Rabbonim tell them. Just as Charedim are willing to endanger themselves by laying in the street, because of what their Rabbonim say. That's Ash's point, I think.
Precisely
And my point is it's at least a defensible position within Judaism regardless of whether you agree with their hashkafa, and that the argument that it's resulting in NEEDLESS death is unfounded.
No need for a river for egloh arufa. Common mistake.
so common that even the רמב"ם made the mistake