Most therapists don’t make enough to go on Pesach programs. They do the work they do for Klal Yisrael, and charge enough to earn a living. And many do learn Torah. This response is indicative of the problem addressed in the first post.
It's stupid because the first letter highlights a real issue (we can argue how widespread etc but the problem unfortunately exists) while the second letter is really ignorant and pretends the first letter isn't actually a problem.
I read familiar highlights of real issues of parents enforcing values in kids while they don’t embody those values. Parents who tell kids to do things, but don’t instill any passion in their kids.
Why do you think this letter pretends the first isn’t an issue? I read it as a response that although some Roshei Yeshiva have an issue highlighting it as if it’s everyone is as problematic as this letter which highlights some issues that parents face while it’s obviously not everyone.
1. We're talking about frum therapists with frum values.
2. Anyone with experience knows the need for good therapists in our community. Our community is full of people with issues. You don't want to know, believe me. Any good rav will have a list of therapists where if things get more complicated they refer their mispalelim to. If any rav thinks he is capable of doing with trauma and the plethora of other issues which arise, דמו בידו.
There are some rabonim who are capable (mostly from experience) of dealing with complex situations, but even these rabonim know their limitations and have their list of therapists.
This was the basic point of the first letter. I'm not sure what the second letter was trying to do except call out people who talk in shul.
I’m curious what the author of this letter thinks.
I did not think the person disagreed with the message that you outlined from the first post. Mainly that it called out the class of “Roshei Yeshiva” when there are lots of great Roshei Yeshiva who don’t fit that caricature, which they felt was a lack of respects and emunas chachamim. Which I think is a reasonable point to make.
Do you disagree?
I think the message of the second post was less directed towards therapist as a class and more towards the intellectual bal habbatim class who preach frum values and don’t embody them. Who force things on kids even if they don’t live it themselves. Who don’t instill a passion towards spirituality by example or otherwise.
The talking in shul was an example of preaching values yet not living by them.
But the main point was to stick up for the kavod of the RY and poke leitzunus at therapy in general. Which was a pointless and harmful point imo. No one goes to their Rebbi for a shaila in engineering (unless they are like rabbi shabes;) - therapy isn't so different. Sure there is common sense but the chochma is specific to the experts (and yes, there are terrible engineers too, I know some of them). Nimnu vegamru amongst the rabonim that we need psychologists today as well, and the bed is very strong. A post like this is trying to counter that. Which, as everyone is pointing out, is stupid. Well, ignorant.
I confess that I find these exchanges incredibly depressing. Why even bother fighting anti-Semitism when we're so eager to tear each other down ourselves?
People will have to decide for themselves which of the two criticisms is more applicable to the majority of cases. But I would like to point out that even if we grant a great deal of truth to the Rosh Yeshiva's statement (I don't), on its own terms he seems to be advocating for a fantasy world where the world outside the yeshiva doesn't have to taken seriously or even thought about very often. Where does the money come from? The medical system? The legal system? Defense from our enemies without, protection from criminals within? Who cares, Hashem will provide, the janitor people will carry out His will, it's coming to us anyway. The news? Just entertainment for mediocrities, we don't need to understand the world or its politics. Let the inferiors worry about who wins elections, it doesn't matter anyway. As the old slogan goes, in a different but maybe not so different context: "turn on, tune in, drop out". Not every drug is eaten, sniffed or smoked; some drugs are fraudulent assurances of spiritual and intellectual superiority and immunity from the negatives of reality.
Love the parody! I personally know many many Frum therapists, it certainly highlights the joke that therapy is.
Therapy is not a serious discipline, it's a business like all others, where the end goal is $$$.
People are way too complex for some therapist to think they can understand and help people by going to school for 6 years.
You want to understand people, mingle with people. Most therapist I know live in ivory towers with little connection to people in "real life" which is OUTSIDE the office!
And what is the עצה for young, broken, neshamos, possibly brought about by a yeshiva schedule/problems at home, etc. comorbid with underlying psychopathologies? Even forgetting the "blame the system" (I dont necessarily agree with that sentiment myself), what do we do for the kids who are born with ADHD and other conditions which by default make their lives infinitely harder than for a "normal" bochur? Do we just send them into the wild to "mingle with people"? Will that help them in bringing their lives a sense of meaning that doesn't feel imposed upon them from without, but rather accepted from within?
Is the solution for this people that we have "homemade" therapists, who are experts at mingling mind you, running around diagnosing treating and helping people? Don't you think that people are "way too complex" for some joe schmoe to think they can understand and help people by going to kiddush club for 6 years.
Does neurosurgery not qualify as a serious discipline just because the end-goal is money? Or maybe tzorchei tzibur also isnt a serious job bc at the end of the day you're making money. Have you considered that your razor shaves off basically every job, including your own, from the face of serious disciplines?
I hope your attitude is this way because you've BH never had the need for therapy. Regardless, though there may be much criticism to throw around at every profession, therapists included, it may well be the case that YOU are in the ivory tower; whether or not your neighbor in that penthouse is a therapist doesn't change that.
Most therapists don’t make enough to go on Pesach programs. They do the work they do for Klal Yisrael, and charge enough to earn a living. And many do learn Torah. This response is indicative of the problem addressed in the first post.
My thoughts exactly.
Stupid response.
"You will grow instead of running to pesach hotels and competing with the Jonses' new car and lace shaitel and over-the-top wedding".
Very few therapists make more then a baseline living.
Dislike
Nothing in this reflects what a frum therapist means.
That's so stupid
There are bad therapists, and there is a need of good ehrliche therapists but this guy has no experience in the real world dealing with people.
He does bring out an important point, I guess, that rabonim are specifically for spiritual guidance and therapists for psychology issues.
I don’t understand the hate for this post. This is just a parody of the other post which also highlighted some of the problems of some Roshei Yeahiva.
It's stupid because the first letter highlights a real issue (we can argue how widespread etc but the problem unfortunately exists) while the second letter is really ignorant and pretends the first letter isn't actually a problem.
In which ways was this letter ignorant?
I read familiar highlights of real issues of parents enforcing values in kids while they don’t embody those values. Parents who tell kids to do things, but don’t instill any passion in their kids.
Why do you think this letter pretends the first isn’t an issue? I read it as a response that although some Roshei Yeshiva have an issue highlighting it as if it’s everyone is as problematic as this letter which highlights some issues that parents face while it’s obviously not everyone.
1. We're talking about frum therapists with frum values.
2. Anyone with experience knows the need for good therapists in our community. Our community is full of people with issues. You don't want to know, believe me. Any good rav will have a list of therapists where if things get more complicated they refer their mispalelim to. If any rav thinks he is capable of doing with trauma and the plethora of other issues which arise, דמו בידו.
There are some rabonim who are capable (mostly from experience) of dealing with complex situations, but even these rabonim know their limitations and have their list of therapists.
This was the basic point of the first letter. I'm not sure what the second letter was trying to do except call out people who talk in shul.
I’m curious what the author of this letter thinks.
I did not think the person disagreed with the message that you outlined from the first post. Mainly that it called out the class of “Roshei Yeshiva” when there are lots of great Roshei Yeshiva who don’t fit that caricature, which they felt was a lack of respects and emunas chachamim. Which I think is a reasonable point to make.
Do you disagree?
I think the message of the second post was less directed towards therapist as a class and more towards the intellectual bal habbatim class who preach frum values and don’t embody them. Who force things on kids even if they don’t live it themselves. Who don’t instill a passion towards spirituality by example or otherwise.
The talking in shul was an example of preaching values yet not living by them.
But the main point was to stick up for the kavod of the RY and poke leitzunus at therapy in general. Which was a pointless and harmful point imo. No one goes to their Rebbi for a shaila in engineering (unless they are like rabbi shabes;) - therapy isn't so different. Sure there is common sense but the chochma is specific to the experts (and yes, there are terrible engineers too, I know some of them). Nimnu vegamru amongst the rabonim that we need psychologists today as well, and the bed is very strong. A post like this is trying to counter that. Which, as everyone is pointing out, is stupid. Well, ignorant.
Hmm I’ll reread. I didn’t take it that way at all. I assumed the author would agree that good therapy is important.
I appreciate yours and other perspectives on how this came across. I do find myself giving people more benefit of the doubt than others do.
Rabbi Shabes as in from Monsey?
What does he have to do with engineering?
Are you implying that he or his followers are convinced that he's knowledgeable about everything?
I confess that I find these exchanges incredibly depressing. Why even bother fighting anti-Semitism when we're so eager to tear each other down ourselves?
People will have to decide for themselves which of the two criticisms is more applicable to the majority of cases. But I would like to point out that even if we grant a great deal of truth to the Rosh Yeshiva's statement (I don't), on its own terms he seems to be advocating for a fantasy world where the world outside the yeshiva doesn't have to taken seriously or even thought about very often. Where does the money come from? The medical system? The legal system? Defense from our enemies without, protection from criminals within? Who cares, Hashem will provide, the janitor people will carry out His will, it's coming to us anyway. The news? Just entertainment for mediocrities, we don't need to understand the world or its politics. Let the inferiors worry about who wins elections, it doesn't matter anyway. As the old slogan goes, in a different but maybe not so different context: "turn on, tune in, drop out". Not every drug is eaten, sniffed or smoked; some drugs are fraudulent assurances of spiritual and intellectual superiority and immunity from the negatives of reality.
Love the parody! I personally know many many Frum therapists, it certainly highlights the joke that therapy is.
Therapy is not a serious discipline, it's a business like all others, where the end goal is $$$.
People are way too complex for some therapist to think they can understand and help people by going to school for 6 years.
You want to understand people, mingle with people. Most therapist I know live in ivory towers with little connection to people in "real life" which is OUTSIDE the office!
And what is the עצה for young, broken, neshamos, possibly brought about by a yeshiva schedule/problems at home, etc. comorbid with underlying psychopathologies? Even forgetting the "blame the system" (I dont necessarily agree with that sentiment myself), what do we do for the kids who are born with ADHD and other conditions which by default make their lives infinitely harder than for a "normal" bochur? Do we just send them into the wild to "mingle with people"? Will that help them in bringing their lives a sense of meaning that doesn't feel imposed upon them from without, but rather accepted from within?
Is the solution for this people that we have "homemade" therapists, who are experts at mingling mind you, running around diagnosing treating and helping people? Don't you think that people are "way too complex" for some joe schmoe to think they can understand and help people by going to kiddush club for 6 years.
Does neurosurgery not qualify as a serious discipline just because the end-goal is money? Or maybe tzorchei tzibur also isnt a serious job bc at the end of the day you're making money. Have you considered that your razor shaves off basically every job, including your own, from the face of serious disciplines?
I hope your attitude is this way because you've BH never had the need for therapy. Regardless, though there may be much criticism to throw around at every profession, therapists included, it may well be the case that YOU are in the ivory tower; whether or not your neighbor in that penthouse is a therapist doesn't change that.
You omitted the minyan factories, but yes, you expose the fakery that is 'yeshivish Judaism' (at least in chu'l).