From what I understand, I think the consensus is that, before the modern era, folk medicine based on tradition was very much superior to elite medicine based on quasi-scientific theory. It worked a bit better, but mostly it was much less likely to kill you. The 'trust the experts' shittah was actually wrong for most of history.
One of the things the Rambam got wrong I guess. The Rambam seems to hold that folk medicine is assur, only "elite medicine based on quasi-scientific theory" is allowed (and is required).
Thing is, this idea of defining darcei haemori as scientic seems central to the Rambam's Rational philosophy. The pessukim of darci haemori are the Rambam's primary source in Hilchos Avoda Zara that the battle against magic and the like is essentially a war on nonrationalissm and nonscientific theories
It's a mefurash mishnah. Walking around with a locust egg in your pocket to cure disease may be a spiritually bad thing, all I'm saying is that it won't poison you, unlike going to a doctor in the 17th century who might give you a liquor of lead-arsenic.
With that said, it's a spectrum. Some folk remedies could be dangerous and some doctors weren't so crazy. The Rambam's medical advice is not too bad, probably because he inherited a long tradition of Greek-Islamic science that had accrued some of the same Burkean benefits folk medicine does.
ת"ש רבי יוחנן חש בצפדינא אזל לגבה דההיא מטרוניתא עבדה חמשא ומעלי שבתא א"ל למחר מאי אמרה ליה לא צריכת אי צריכנא מאי אמרה אשתבע לי דלא מגלית אישתבע לה לאלהא ישראל לא מגלינא גלייה ליה למחר נפק דרשה בפירקאhttps://www.sefaria.org/Avodah_Zarah.28a.5
This Gemara is proof that chazal (or at least R Yochanan) took medical advice from non Jewish sources and thought it important enough to say over in a public speech, which could explain why medical advice is in the Gemara.
The fact that this number is expressed in equal growing fractions shows that this discussion is allegorical!
This is another example of where we see that chazal were writing with a completely different mindset then today’s. No one today writing a comprehensive authoritative religious work would make up allegorical numbers. They would either write the real number or use some kind of phrase meaning a lot. They would not make up a ridiculously large number. The style of expression has changed dramatically. Today we believe that if you publish a number it should be as accurate as possible. Chazal clearly were working off a different assumption.
There clearly are 2 streams of thought about this. Some take this literally and some don’t. If you don’t take it literally then it shows that the Gemara is written with a different mindset than today. No one woukd write exaggerated numbers today in a Sefer like the Gemara. It shows that chazal had a different mindset which would explain how they could offer remedies that they didn’t really test.
And why do you need everything to work out and make sense according to those shitos that say everything is literal unless you think those are inherently more probable? Just say your questions are a proof against that shita.
"The OTD side seems to think that if Chazal didn’t know science, that means that Judaism isn’t true."
No, it just means that Chazal is fallible, and if Chazal is fallible there is good logical reasons to dispute their arguments (which never passed the sniff test), and totally destroys the vast majority of Torah SeBaal Peh, and utterly destroys Orthodox theology. You are then left without the doctrine of inerrency, to defend a possible Karaite view with biblical maximumalism vs minimalism in the history/archaeology realm. That's pretty bad!
He asks about the practical impossibility of Korban Pesach and Melika, ignoring the fact they were actually done - with eyewitness testimony to that fact by Josephus.
I don’t ignore that it was brought. What I pointed out is that it’s physically impossible for a large number of people to bring the Korban pesach given the halachic and time limitations. These are facts. The azara was a small area. They entered via one door. The tone was very limited.
3. Now the number (26) of those that were carried captive, during this whole war, was collected to be ninety-seven thousand. As was the number of those that perished during the whole siege eleven hundred thousand. The greater part of whom were indeed of the same nation [with the citizens of Jerusalem], but not belonging to the city it self. For they were come up from all the country to the feast of unleavened bread; and were on a sudden shut up by an army; which at the very first occasioned so great a straitness among them, that there came a pestilential destruction upon them; and soon afterward such a famine, as destroyed them more suddenly. And that this city could contain so many people in it, is manifest by that number of them, which was taken under Cestius. Who being desirous of informing Nero of the power of the city, who otherwise was disposed to contemn that nation, intreated the High-priests, if the thing were possible, to take the number of their whole multitude. So these High-priests, upon the coming of that feast which is called the passover, when they slay their sacrifices, from the ninth hour till the eleventh; but so that a company not less than ten, (27) belong to every sacrifice: (for ’tis not lawful for them to feast singly by themselves). And many of us are twenty in a company. Now the number of sacrifices was two hundred fifty six thousand and five hundred: which, upon the allowance of no more than ten that feast together, amounts to *two millions seven hundred thousand, and two hundred persons* that were pure and holy. For as to those that have the leprosy, or the gonorrhœa; or women that have their monthly courses, or such as are otherwise polluted, it is not lawful for them to be partakers of this sacrifice. Nor indeed for any foreigners neither, who come hither to worship.
Instead of using Happy’s interpretation, Marty continues the line of questioning, because it cannot be that Tosfos were wrong! Instead, he assumes that Chazal were idiots who would never have noticed that eating something rotten makes you sick. That doesn’t mean that Chazal didn’t know science, it means that they were dumber than the earliest cavemen who said ooog and who figured out rotting food is bad - all just because Marty has a question. (Look at the exchange yourself).
The answer of נשתנה הטבע is the accepted answer of the rishonim and the early acharonim when they deal with these kinds of questions. It’s not just this one tosafos. You want to deny a large group of rishonim go ahead.
"The answer of נשתנה הטבע is the accepted answer of the rishonim and the early acharonim when they deal with these kinds of questions. It’s not just this one tosafos. You want to deny a large group of rishonim go ahead."
OK, and we should have a certain respect for that answer for that reason but why do we need to be limited to their answers if we think have a better and/or different explanation, esp. from a non-Charedi POV?
In this case its more saying an additional explanation or alternative approach. I fully acknowledged the rishonim's right to say nishtana hateva or whatever answer they give for any specific instance I was simply suggesting another mehalech.
Its your blog. It is your cadence, tone, and style. You have a belius in it. If it is indeed not I will (to quote a kiruv expert) immediately eat my yarmulke.
"The purpose of this blog is to express these doubts and hopefully get some answers or at least conversation from commenters. One of the biggest problems that I have is that I have no one to talk to. In many ways I am very lonely. My wife is a true believer in Hashem, and she constantly talks about emuna. My children go to Charedi schools and have been brainwashed by the Charedi educational system. My friends, chavrusas etc. are all true believers and would not listen or understand if I talked to them. Ironically, the one person I can talk to and feel closest to is a chiloni co-worker. I can say anything to him and he listens without judging."
"I’m sorry, but this is just dumb. The Gemara goes through a few different shitos (1/5, 1/50, 1/500 etc). The fact that this number is expressed in equal growing fractions shows that this discussion is allegorical!"
Your derision is misplaced. Your not going to find many sources that think this was allegorical. Rav Schwab (and I'm pretty sure others) are very bothered how the mitzriem did not notice this huge reduction in the population and they run around trying to give all sorts of answers.
Do you think Rav Schwab was "just dumb"?
The fact of that most frum people learn rashi that 4/5s died in the plague of darkness and understand it literally. You can take issue with that, but the blog is perfectly legitimate in pointing out how silly such a belief is. Be angry at frum people for believing this stuff so literally, not at otd people for pointing out how nonsensical such a belief is.
(I remember in my questioning phase trying to figure out how many bodies per hour each jew had to bury during makos choshesh. I remember concluding that without gigantic mass graves, the math was not matching.)
Your right, maybe the 2 out of 600k is obviously not literal, even for most frum people.
(That said, almost every frum person I know (and probably most that you know) takes the 1/5 number literally, which would mean the they assume that there were 10 million Jewish slaves - which would have been almost one fifth of the world's population at the time. And that 8 million of them dropped dead and were buried in the plague of darkness.)
Goes back to what I was saying about peshuto shel mikra. Nobody who actually learns peshuto shel mikra thinks 1/5 is pshat. Only those for whom Rashi=pshat.
It seems like frum people think that 4/5s of Jews didn't leave מצרים and many have anxiety that therefore they'll be from the 4/5s not to leave the current גלות.
In my circles it's a problem on par with smoking. Whenever the topic comes up I try to convince people that whatever did or didn't happen in מצרים is no personal indication of them greeting משיח or not
From what I understand, I think the consensus is that, before the modern era, folk medicine based on tradition was very much superior to elite medicine based on quasi-scientific theory. It worked a bit better, but mostly it was much less likely to kill you. The 'trust the experts' shittah was actually wrong for most of history.
One of the things the Rambam got wrong I guess. The Rambam seems to hold that folk medicine is assur, only "elite medicine based on quasi-scientific theory" is allowed (and is required).
Thing is, this idea of defining darcei haemori as scientic seems central to the Rambam's Rational philosophy. The pessukim of darci haemori are the Rambam's primary source in Hilchos Avoda Zara that the battle against magic and the like is essentially a war on nonrationalissm and nonscientific theories
It's a mefurash mishnah. Walking around with a locust egg in your pocket to cure disease may be a spiritually bad thing, all I'm saying is that it won't poison you, unlike going to a doctor in the 17th century who might give you a liquor of lead-arsenic.
With that said, it's a spectrum. Some folk remedies could be dangerous and some doctors weren't so crazy. The Rambam's medical advice is not too bad, probably because he inherited a long tradition of Greek-Islamic science that had accrued some of the same Burkean benefits folk medicine does.
A mefurash mishna?
Halvai things would be simple. There is a very long teshuva from the Rashba on this.
“He’s probably patur min hamitzvos in the first place”
I’m using that 😂
This post ranks pretty low on my insultometer. I was expecting worse. Thanks.
Why were you expecting worse? I am pretty careful with what I write
This post was worth it for the Peanuts alone. One of Peppermint Patty's best.
agreed
ת"ש רבי יוחנן חש בצפדינא אזל לגבה דההיא מטרוניתא עבדה חמשא ומעלי שבתא א"ל למחר מאי אמרה ליה לא צריכת אי צריכנא מאי אמרה אשתבע לי דלא מגלית אישתבע לה לאלהא ישראל לא מגלינא גלייה ליה למחר נפק דרשה בפירקאhttps://www.sefaria.org/Avodah_Zarah.28a.5
This Gemara is proof that chazal (or at least R Yochanan) took medical advice from non Jewish sources and thought it important enough to say over in a public speech, which could explain why medical advice is in the Gemara.
Any data to back up Nishtana haTeva in the cases invoked by Rishonim? Isn't it a sevora, no better than any other, purely speculative?
It might be worse, given that it's falsifiable.
The fact that this number is expressed in equal growing fractions shows that this discussion is allegorical!
This is another example of where we see that chazal were writing with a completely different mindset then today’s. No one today writing a comprehensive authoritative religious work would make up allegorical numbers. They would either write the real number or use some kind of phrase meaning a lot. They would not make up a ridiculously large number. The style of expression has changed dramatically. Today we believe that if you publish a number it should be as accurate as possible. Chazal clearly were working off a different assumption.
OK, and the problem with that, is? In that case you concede the post is wrong as it presupposed the numbers were meant totally literally.
There clearly are 2 streams of thought about this. Some take this literally and some don’t. If you don’t take it literally then it shows that the Gemara is written with a different mindset than today. No one woukd write exaggerated numbers today in a Sefer like the Gemara. It shows that chazal had a different mindset which would explain how they could offer remedies that they didn’t really test.
So you agree it's not a question if you hold Chazal don't have to hold of all modern literary conventions?
As I said there are 2 schools of thought regarding this. There is a group of rishonim and schsronim that take the statements of chazal literally.
And why do you need everything to work out and make sense according to those shitos that say everything is literal unless you think those are inherently more probable? Just say your questions are a proof against that shita.
Because it’s hard to say that a whole group of rishonim fundamentally misunderstood chazal.
"The OTD side seems to think that if Chazal didn’t know science, that means that Judaism isn’t true."
No, it just means that Chazal is fallible, and if Chazal is fallible there is good logical reasons to dispute their arguments (which never passed the sniff test), and totally destroys the vast majority of Torah SeBaal Peh, and utterly destroys Orthodox theology. You are then left without the doctrine of inerrency, to defend a possible Karaite view with biblical maximumalism vs minimalism in the history/archaeology realm. That's pretty bad!
He asks about the practical impossibility of Korban Pesach and Melika, ignoring the fact they were actually done - with eyewitness testimony to that fact by Josephus.
I don’t ignore that it was brought. What I pointed out is that it’s physically impossible for a large number of people to bring the Korban pesach given the halachic and time limitations. These are facts. The azara was a small area. They entered via one door. The tone was very limited.
3. Now the number (26) of those that were carried captive, during this whole war, was collected to be ninety-seven thousand. As was the number of those that perished during the whole siege eleven hundred thousand. The greater part of whom were indeed of the same nation [with the citizens of Jerusalem], but not belonging to the city it self. For they were come up from all the country to the feast of unleavened bread; and were on a sudden shut up by an army; which at the very first occasioned so great a straitness among them, that there came a pestilential destruction upon them; and soon afterward such a famine, as destroyed them more suddenly. And that this city could contain so many people in it, is manifest by that number of them, which was taken under Cestius. Who being desirous of informing Nero of the power of the city, who otherwise was disposed to contemn that nation, intreated the High-priests, if the thing were possible, to take the number of their whole multitude. So these High-priests, upon the coming of that feast which is called the passover, when they slay their sacrifices, from the ninth hour till the eleventh; but so that a company not less than ten, (27) belong to every sacrifice: (for ’tis not lawful for them to feast singly by themselves). And many of us are twenty in a company. Now the number of sacrifices was two hundred fifty six thousand and five hundred: which, upon the allowance of no more than ten that feast together, amounts to *two millions seven hundred thousand, and two hundred persons* that were pure and holy. For as to those that have the leprosy, or the gonorrhœa; or women that have their monthly courses, or such as are otherwise polluted, it is not lawful for them to be partakers of this sacrifice. Nor indeed for any foreigners neither, who come hither to worship.
https://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/war-6.html
Look at how big Josephus's number is.
You wrote:
Instead of using Happy’s interpretation, Marty continues the line of questioning, because it cannot be that Tosfos were wrong! Instead, he assumes that Chazal were idiots who would never have noticed that eating something rotten makes you sick. That doesn’t mean that Chazal didn’t know science, it means that they were dumber than the earliest cavemen who said ooog and who figured out rotting food is bad - all just because Marty has a question. (Look at the exchange yourself).
The answer of נשתנה הטבע is the accepted answer of the rishonim and the early acharonim when they deal with these kinds of questions. It’s not just this one tosafos. You want to deny a large group of rishonim go ahead.
"The answer of נשתנה הטבע is the accepted answer of the rishonim and the early acharonim when they deal with these kinds of questions. It’s not just this one tosafos. You want to deny a large group of rishonim go ahead."
OK, and we should have a certain respect for that answer for that reason but why do we need to be limited to their answers if we think have a better and/or different explanation, esp. from a non-Charedi POV?
The rishonim are the primary interpreters of the Gemara. We generally assume that acharinim don’t argue with rishonim.
In this case its more saying an additional explanation or alternative approach. I fully acknowledged the rishonim's right to say nishtana hateva or whatever answer they give for any specific instance I was simply suggesting another mehalech.
The blog you attributed to me is not mine. I have read it and quote it sometimes. My blog was https://jewishworker.blogspot.com
Its your blog. It is your cadence, tone, and style. You have a belius in it. If it is indeed not I will (to quote a kiruv expert) immediately eat my yarmulke.
Believe what you want. It’s someone I know.
I agree it's someone you know!
"The purpose of this blog is to express these doubts and hopefully get some answers or at least conversation from commenters. One of the biggest problems that I have is that I have no one to talk to. In many ways I am very lonely. My wife is a true believer in Hashem, and she constantly talks about emuna. My children go to Charedi schools and have been brainwashed by the Charedi educational system. My friends, chavrusas etc. are all true believers and would not listen or understand if I talked to them. Ironically, the one person I can talk to and feel closest to is a chiloni co-worker. I can say anything to him and he listens without judging."
https://ajewwithquestions.blogspot.com/2016/06/who-am-i-and-why-am-i-blogging.html
You said you don't know anyone who you can speak to without them judging. JewishWorker doesn't sound all that judgemental.
"I’m sorry, but this is just dumb. The Gemara goes through a few different shitos (1/5, 1/50, 1/500 etc). The fact that this number is expressed in equal growing fractions shows that this discussion is allegorical!"
Your derision is misplaced. Your not going to find many sources that think this was allegorical. Rav Schwab (and I'm pretty sure others) are very bothered how the mitzriem did not notice this huge reduction in the population and they run around trying to give all sorts of answers.
Do you think Rav Schwab was "just dumb"?
The fact of that most frum people learn rashi that 4/5s died in the plague of darkness and understand it literally. You can take issue with that, but the blog is perfectly legitimate in pointing out how silly such a belief is. Be angry at frum people for believing this stuff so literally, not at otd people for pointing out how nonsensical such a belief is.
(I remember in my questioning phase trying to figure out how many bodies per hour each jew had to bury during makos choshesh. I remember concluding that without gigantic mass graves, the math was not matching.)
I'm sorry. Reread the quote. No one thinks 2/600k left Egypt is literal.
Your right, maybe the 2 out of 600k is obviously not literal, even for most frum people.
(That said, almost every frum person I know (and probably most that you know) takes the 1/5 number literally, which would mean the they assume that there were 10 million Jewish slaves - which would have been almost one fifth of the world's population at the time. And that 8 million of them dropped dead and were buried in the plague of darkness.)
Its amaratzus. If you explained the math they'd agree. Its not a genuine good faith question on Judaism itself.
It is true that most frum Jews, and even a lot of barely frum Jews, take the 1/5th as literal because it's in Rashi.
Goes back to what I was saying about peshuto shel mikra. Nobody who actually learns peshuto shel mikra thinks 1/5 is pshat. Only those for whom Rashi=pshat.
It seems like frum people think that 4/5s of Jews didn't leave מצרים and many have anxiety that therefore they'll be from the 4/5s not to leave the current גלות.
In my circles it's a problem on par with smoking. Whenever the topic comes up I try to convince people that whatever did or didn't happen in מצרים is no personal indication of them greeting משיח or not