"As frum yidden, we should celebrate this accomplishment. At the very least, even if one believes this should be assur because of increasing sakana due to angering the Arabs (something very hard to believe nowadays as killing 30k Palestinians is way worse)"
It's more than 50k, and you can't separate these issues, since the Temple Mount crowd, and especially those who brought this korban, are not just overtly pro-genocide but see genocide as an act of national spiritual cleansing that will remove the klippot of exile and is inseparably connected to the resumption of sacrifice.
If you want to bring korbanot as they are supposed to be brought, then the only way is to build peaceful relationships with the Muslim world, something that has been set back many decades. If you want progress on that front, then a quick way would be to put all the people involved in this 'korban' in jail so they can't do terrorist attacks in the Yehuda and Shomron *specifically for the purpose of igniting a civil and regional war*. This is leaving aside the issue that God doesn't want sacrifices from non-monotheists, and has been as explicit as He could possible be on this issue, and so some kind of Josiah-type national campaign against precisely the people bringing this 'korban' would have to be implemented before we can even think about such things.
It's so patently obvious that for any functional Jewish rituals to be done on Har Habayit, we must have peaceful coexistence with the Arabs.
But messianic Jews do not think in realistic terms, they think in magic and miracles and hope if they do more and more of this shit, Bayit Shlishi will fall from heaven and crush the dome of the Rock.
Going to Har Habayit is a really special experience. It's so rare to see a posy with such sincerity here. I'm so used to seeing a mocking tone about everything. But those who don't understand the importance of Har Habayit are like deaf people who can't hear music, they think we're crazy. I had the privilege of going to Har Habayit on Erev Shavuos with Rav Yitzchak Brand, who also had some things to say about this incident. We were able to daven on the eastern wall, a tremendous gain from just a few years ago. People are still going to call us crazy for wanting Judaism as it was originally intended. But we are sure in our path, and soon others will follow us onto the Holy Mountain.
Not so simple if you can bring shtei halechem without the shalmei tzibur. Rambam says yes, Ravad says no. Of course, Ravad also says there's no kedushas har habayis bizman hazeh, so...
And you're right that it's unfair to call them fringe nutjobs. They seem to be getting more mainstream every year.
Yeshivat har Habayit is a mixed bag, but the fastest growing - and probably already an absolute majority, - faction are Breslev-Kook-Lubavitch crossover mental case criminals, and the other factions have just decided to go along with this because they didn't have the numbers and they gaslighted themselves into thinking that heresy and paganism isn't really so bad. These are the ones who brought this 'korban'.
It is preferable from a Jewish perspective that the temple mount be in the hands of Sunni Muslims than these people.
What a prophetic blessing this is. As Pinchas was Zealous for the Law of G-D so these men are, too. Yes, maybe there isn't the Temple or Altar yet, but G-D alone knows the heart. And I assure you, if these men were not mean to succeed G-D would have prevented it. Look at the obstacles and enemies these men had to overcome to accomplish this amazing blessing.
The haters will spew their vile remarks without truly understanding how powerful and prophetic this is.
Sadly, as Israel rejects the very Torah of G-D and has returned to great sin (as the nations sin), there is a Holy Remnant.
Putting aside the halacha issues and putting aside the provocation of Arabs involved a simple question for the parties involved. Are they also makpid to be more than 15 mil away from Yerushalyim on Erev Pesach? Some (very few) have that chumra so as not to incur the chiyuv kores for not brining the Korbon Pesach. Those types of course do not bring korbonas. The Poskim who discuss that chumra, pretty much unanimously reject it on the grounds that there isn't enough of a tzad that a Korbon Pesach can be brought today that there would be potential chiyuv kores for not doing so. But for these activists what is there excuse? They claim to believe you can bring korbonos, they claim to be motivated by Kovod Shomayim, not just politics and not just to show the Arabs who is the boss. If so why do they ignore the potential chiyus kores of being within 15 mil of Yeruslayim and not bringing a Korbon Pesach? Or do they ignore such concerns because there are no political overtones in them.
They do not. Their motivation has everything to do with claims of "sovereignty" and nothing to do with a desire to bring offerings to be close to God (which is what קרבן means). Otherwise they wouldn't even dare thinking about committing such a disacralization.
This is a classic case of attribution bias. You're assuming their motives can't be lishem shamayim simply because you disapprove of their actions.
I happen to know some of the people involved in arranging this korban. They have devoted their entire lives to renewing the avodah. It's a mistake to claim their motivation is purely political when they are, from their perspective, simply trying to be mekayem a mitzvah from the Torah, whether one agrees with their actions or not.
You seem to have missed the point. My point wasn't about who is or isn't biased. It was that you are mistakenly judging their motives because of your bias.
As I said, I know these people personally, which is why I can speak to their intentions. You, it appears, do not.
But in general the sugya is far from simple and most Charedi/yeshivish rabonim don't promote it because of many, many halachic considerations. Your assumption that they went k'halacha (and that they didn't violate any big issurim) is just not at all as simple as you make it.
The vast majority of Chareidi rebuttals are "we don't know how to pasken". I don't really buy that. We can pasken opening soda bottles on shabbos and that also may be deoraysa. If someone goes through the sugya and concludes it's mutar its fine.
I'd be more worried if there was motivated reasoning here to find a heter, which is worrisome.
Centuries of precedent on opening bottles on Shabbos, i.e., Hilchos Shabbos, have taught us how to decide Halachos in that sphere. Kadashim and Taharos do not have those centuries of precedent. How can we decide between a Rambam and Raavad? Usually, we can look at the consensus among other Rishonim, how later poskim viewed the issue, and what other pesakim tell us. Here, we are alone.
The Chazon Ish was able to decide between a Rambam and a Raavad in Hilchos Shemitah, but we can't do that anymore? That's not a compelling objection. Plus, we have klalei psal in other areas to help us. 95% of the time the halacha is decided in accordance with the Rambam, especially when it's just the Raavad arguing. You need a better objection than that.
Give me an example of a non-precedent based psak of the Chazon Ish about a machlokes Rambam Raavad (remember, Shemittah isn't optional, people have to eat. A שב ואל תעשה in korbanos is different).
And where do you get your 95% number from. I posit that you pulled it out of your sleeve. The Rambam has no better rating than Rabbeinu Tam or the Rif. Only to some of the primitive Yemenites that invented a mesora about 100 years ago.
95% might be a slight exaggeration, but it's definitely directionally accurate for Sefardim, and definitely when there are no major Rishonim disputing the Rambam except a הגהות ראבד- give me an example where the SA rejects the Rambam in favor of just a Raavad. I don't think it exists.
Shemitah I will have to get back to you on. But Korbanos are not optional either.
There is no such thing as 'sefardim'. Only in sociological studies and some cultural issues. In Halacha, their traditions are more diverse than Ashkenazim. Halacha is complex and messy, not neatly organized into 'we pasken everything like Reb XYZ'.
We need a R Moshe
You need a R Moshe
"As frum yidden, we should celebrate this accomplishment. At the very least, even if one believes this should be assur because of increasing sakana due to angering the Arabs (something very hard to believe nowadays as killing 30k Palestinians is way worse)"
It's more than 50k, and you can't separate these issues, since the Temple Mount crowd, and especially those who brought this korban, are not just overtly pro-genocide but see genocide as an act of national spiritual cleansing that will remove the klippot of exile and is inseparably connected to the resumption of sacrifice.
If you want to bring korbanot as they are supposed to be brought, then the only way is to build peaceful relationships with the Muslim world, something that has been set back many decades. If you want progress on that front, then a quick way would be to put all the people involved in this 'korban' in jail so they can't do terrorist attacks in the Yehuda and Shomron *specifically for the purpose of igniting a civil and regional war*. This is leaving aside the issue that God doesn't want sacrifices from non-monotheists, and has been as explicit as He could possible be on this issue, and so some kind of Josiah-type national campaign against precisely the people bringing this 'korban' would have to be implemented before we can even think about such things.
Well said.
It's so patently obvious that for any functional Jewish rituals to be done on Har Habayit, we must have peaceful coexistence with the Arabs.
But messianic Jews do not think in realistic terms, they think in magic and miracles and hope if they do more and more of this shit, Bayit Shlishi will fall from heaven and crush the dome of the Rock.
It is so sad that that chaotic scene was the best we can do.
May we be able to do it fully as it was intended...
Going to Har Habayit is a really special experience. It's so rare to see a posy with such sincerity here. I'm so used to seeing a mocking tone about everything. But those who don't understand the importance of Har Habayit are like deaf people who can't hear music, they think we're crazy. I had the privilege of going to Har Habayit on Erev Shavuos with Rav Yitzchak Brand, who also had some things to say about this incident. We were able to daven on the eastern wall, a tremendous gain from just a few years ago. People are still going to call us crazy for wanting Judaism as it was originally intended. But we are sure in our path, and soon others will follow us onto the Holy Mountain.
You mean the first time in 1,955 years.
Not so simple if you can bring shtei halechem without the shalmei tzibur. Rambam says yes, Ravad says no. Of course, Ravad also says there's no kedushas har habayis bizman hazeh, so...
And you're right that it's unfair to call them fringe nutjobs. They seem to be getting more mainstream every year.
yes mainstream nutjobs sounds more accurate
Yeshivat har Habayit is a mixed bag, but the fastest growing - and probably already an absolute majority, - faction are Breslev-Kook-Lubavitch crossover mental case criminals, and the other factions have just decided to go along with this because they didn't have the numbers and they gaslighted themselves into thinking that heresy and paganism isn't really so bad. These are the ones who brought this 'korban'.
It is preferable from a Jewish perspective that the temple mount be in the hands of Sunni Muslims than these people.
IDK. I'm as not-YWN-type as anyone, but it's hard for me to see Hashem being proud of that chaotic circus.
What a prophetic blessing this is. As Pinchas was Zealous for the Law of G-D so these men are, too. Yes, maybe there isn't the Temple or Altar yet, but G-D alone knows the heart. And I assure you, if these men were not mean to succeed G-D would have prevented it. Look at the obstacles and enemies these men had to overcome to accomplish this amazing blessing.
The haters will spew their vile remarks without truly understanding how powerful and prophetic this is.
Sadly, as Israel rejects the very Torah of G-D and has returned to great sin (as the nations sin), there is a Holy Remnant.
Am Chai Israel.
this is very gay/unimpressive
>> this is very gay/unimpressive
johnny kamoni -
Please elaborate on that, if you would be so kind.
Putting aside the halacha issues and putting aside the provocation of Arabs involved a simple question for the parties involved. Are they also makpid to be more than 15 mil away from Yerushalyim on Erev Pesach? Some (very few) have that chumra so as not to incur the chiyuv kores for not brining the Korbon Pesach. Those types of course do not bring korbonas. The Poskim who discuss that chumra, pretty much unanimously reject it on the grounds that there isn't enough of a tzad that a Korbon Pesach can be brought today that there would be potential chiyuv kores for not doing so. But for these activists what is there excuse? They claim to believe you can bring korbonos, they claim to be motivated by Kovod Shomayim, not just politics and not just to show the Arabs who is the boss. If so why do they ignore the potential chiyus kores of being within 15 mil of Yeruslayim and not bringing a Korbon Pesach? Or do they ignore such concerns because there are no political overtones in them.
It's a disagrace. What these clowns, genuine kohanim or not, performed is a bizyon kodashin. Better no offering than this chaotic, burlesque exhibit.
If we do nothing, we will likely get nothing.
I'd say better chaotic baby-steps and learn over time how to perfect our act. It's hard to call these 'clowns' a bizyon, when we know they mean-well.
They do not. Their motivation has everything to do with claims of "sovereignty" and nothing to do with a desire to bring offerings to be close to God (which is what קרבן means). Otherwise they wouldn't even dare thinking about committing such a disacralization.
This is a classic case of attribution bias. You're assuming their motives can't be lishem shamayim simply because you disapprove of their actions.
I happen to know some of the people involved in arranging this korban. They have devoted their entire lives to renewing the avodah. It's a mistake to claim their motivation is purely political when they are, from their perspective, simply trying to be mekayem a mitzvah from the Torah, whether one agrees with their actions or not.
Of course. You, on the other hand, are perfectly neutral, not biased, and dispassionate, if I believe what you write in your posts.
You seem to have missed the point. My point wasn't about who is or isn't biased. It was that you are mistakenly judging their motives because of your bias.
As I said, I know these people personally, which is why I can speak to their intentions. You, it appears, do not.
"two Kohanim managed to bring the Shtei Halachem korban lehalacha on Har Habayis"
Not simple at all. For example, the Avnet was very likely passul See a discussion about it here
https://forum.otzar.org/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=66552
Added a PDF on the subject from R Eliyahu Weber
I think sakana is a big aspect.
But in general the sugya is far from simple and most Charedi/yeshivish rabonim don't promote it because of many, many halachic considerations. Your assumption that they went k'halacha (and that they didn't violate any big issurim) is just not at all as simple as you make it.
So yes, they are fringe.
The vast majority of Chareidi rebuttals are "we don't know how to pasken". I don't really buy that. We can pasken opening soda bottles on shabbos and that also may be deoraysa. If someone goes through the sugya and concludes it's mutar its fine.
I'd be more worried if there was motivated reasoning here to find a heter, which is worrisome.
That is precisely the point.
Centuries of precedent on opening bottles on Shabbos, i.e., Hilchos Shabbos, have taught us how to decide Halachos in that sphere. Kadashim and Taharos do not have those centuries of precedent. How can we decide between a Rambam and Raavad? Usually, we can look at the consensus among other Rishonim, how later poskim viewed the issue, and what other pesakim tell us. Here, we are alone.
The Chazon Ish was able to decide between a Rambam and a Raavad in Hilchos Shemitah, but we can't do that anymore? That's not a compelling objection. Plus, we have klalei psal in other areas to help us. 95% of the time the halacha is decided in accordance with the Rambam, especially when it's just the Raavad arguing. You need a better objection than that.
Give me an example of a non-precedent based psak of the Chazon Ish about a machlokes Rambam Raavad (remember, Shemittah isn't optional, people have to eat. A שב ואל תעשה in korbanos is different).
And where do you get your 95% number from. I posit that you pulled it out of your sleeve. The Rambam has no better rating than Rabbeinu Tam or the Rif. Only to some of the primitive Yemenites that invented a mesora about 100 years ago.
95% might be a slight exaggeration, but it's definitely directionally accurate for Sefardim, and definitely when there are no major Rishonim disputing the Rambam except a הגהות ראבד- give me an example where the SA rejects the Rambam in favor of just a Raavad. I don't think it exists.
Shemitah I will have to get back to you on. But Korbanos are not optional either.
There is no such thing as 'sefardim'. Only in sociological studies and some cultural issues. In Halacha, their traditions are more diverse than Ashkenazim. Halacha is complex and messy, not neatly organized into 'we pasken everything like Reb XYZ'.
R akiva eiger and chasam sofer and r eliashiv and r shlomo zalman had strong opinions on the matter. As well as many others.
Don't we need the para aduma?
No. Not for this korban
Again, super debatable.
Added a PDF on the subject from R Eliyahu Weber
Link's not working for me
You can download it here
https://forum.otzar.org/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=66552&start=40#p867688