Thank you for posting, Ash! This piece really came from the inner depths of my soul. I hope it's relatable to both those who left the yeshiva world, like me, and to those who are still firmly situated within it.
My dm's are open for any questions, comments or concerns.
There is some slow and quiet movement and progress on this.
There is a multi-set Hebrew sefer called Be'atzacha Tancheni https://baatzatcha.co.il/ that attempts to address many of these points, and was translated into English as "the real you" (not as good as the Hebrew). Rav Elya Brudny has reportedly said he thinks every Bochur should read it.
Do not learn much more than you need to! The individual must take care of his body so that he does not weaken and become ill... He should walk in the late afternoon or early evening... And when it is feasible, he should swim in the river to strengthen his body."
Chafetz Chaim
I gained a bunch from your article, my son is in 11th grade and in a yeshiva and I am fully otd and estranged for no reasons besides he's in a yeshiva and is content there but has zero interest in normal father child relationships, I bring up Jewish concepts constantly with zero engagement, though with my three daughters they are able to discuss and are aware of the concepts I bring whereas with him it's disengagement, healthy athletic fun kid but self-insulating within yeshiva is an odd conundrum indeed
I cherish the quote that I pasted at the top that I found yesterday and got no response from him with that 🙄
I am saddened to read this. My advice to you would be to play the long game. Ultimately, I believe, he will want some relationship with his father. You need to keep reaching out in meaningful ways. Whatever you do, don't get cynical or push back at him. Take the high road and ignore the shtus.
I'll be honest: this is a great piece which is why I published it. But it is also a great example of why you shouldn't raise your kids to be a harry. If you plan on raising your kids in the Yeshivish velt, raise them that way from the beginning. A yeshivish kid would see through most of the BS and understand it's exaggerated. A harry though takes it literally. This is a kid who never heard of bitul Torah until 10th grade! Of course he's going to take it seriously. A yeshivish kid knows bitul Torah is like Lashon Hara and everyone needs to chill.
A similar thing happens when Americans go to Israeli Yeshivos and take the propaganda literally. It's why wannabes end up Etznikim.
Wrong. I think you know what mesivta I learned in, and most of the kids come from a very yeshivish background, yet everyone either buys this perspective throughout the yeshivah years or else joins the "shvache guys" as described in this post. Everyone.
Yup. Especially the specifics mentioned. Guys disappearing for months with "mono", the pressure to maintain exhaustive learning schedules during bein hazmanim, social status being determined by level of learning (we didn't have grades), leaving yeshiva for any reason being criticized (the good guys never left campus from off shabbos to off shabbos), extra bekius Sedarjm, long shmoneh esrehs, etc etc etc
most of the children of Yeshiva families do not grow up in the very yeshivish communities because the yeshivas are by design located outside of major yeshivish population centers
A Harry is a guy who is, or pretends to be, yeshivish on the outside but doesn't really measure up. Poser might be a good comparison. But also, a Harry may THINK he's the real deal, not realizing he doesn't have a clue.
You mean all those who claim to live with extraordinary levels of emunah and bitochon yet can hear a dollar bill landing on a carpet a mile away and who look for every loophole going to get a bit more cash? That's maybe 80% of Yeshivaland.
So what does? What is 'yeshivish' anyway besides a bunch of chitzonios?
You know, highly yeshivish minhag of putting on a hat and jacket over a T-shirt whilst on vacation for tefillah and claiming that is 'hikoin likras elokechoh'. Complete ritual with zero understanding. As if anyone would stand in front of a king like that.
Unless you are from the UK or you are a fan of Shakespearean dialect, please refrain from words like "whilst" and "amongst." It's "while" and "among" and has been for the past 150 years.
Except amongst the yeshivish trying to sound intelligent.
You mean like c70% of "yeshivah guys" where it's all talk the talk and walk the walk but inside they can here a dollar bill drop on a carpet a mile away and will happily drop everything for the latest 'reid in town'? Obsess ever cholent and kugel and food generally like a low class goy? Happily daven shacharis late? That type? - there are an awful lot of them.
Story checks out. For all those saying it's an anamoly, this post describes the experience of the yeshiva I was in for mesivta, and I've heard such things about many other yeshivos as well.
My husband went in the opposite direction from modox to yeshivish but we were never THAT yeshivish, more like “yeshivish lite”. I have very little skin in this game because I’m orthoprax myself at this point, but I think there are downsides and severe pressures in the YU lifestyle as well. From what I can tell there are serious pressures to earn a boatload of money in that society. Like seriously a couple who are both fairly high powered professionals barely making it financially, let alone more average people from more average families. I did worry about my boys spending too many hours in school, but they managed. One seems to have figured out how to spend a healthy amount of time learning and a healthy amount of time on other hobbies. Another was never interested in learning and didn’t pursue any learning beyond high school, I guess you could say he reverted to being modox and that is fine with us. I’m glad I was born female because I’m pretty sure had I been male I would have burned myself out learning. Also it’s much harder for a male to be orthoprax.
I do hear the financial concerns. Many people cautioned me when I was in yeshiva that even if I wanted to I couldn't go to YU because tuition is over 50k a year! Thankfully, the need-based scholarship they offered me was extremely generous and I was able to attend with no issues. I know a lot of otherwise expensive modox institutions give generous scholarships to those in need too. But you're definitely right that the modox community in general tends to be very well off and there's pressure to succeed financially.
There’s another criticism I have of YU that is a little harder for me to pin down. It isn’t all by far, but I really dislike a lot of my YU relatives. I think maybe it’s a culture clash because I’m culturally yeshivish (they don’t know I’m orthoprax). My kids say their YU cousins, not all but many of them, are condescending and unkind. Not to mention the materialism (which exists in the yeshivish lite world but not as intensely). The dati leumi relatives in Israel can also be this way minus the materialism. But maybe the Israelis have an excuse because they see my children as a stand in for all the Israeli chareidim that refuse to serve in the IDF. This can be a bias on my part since I’m more accustomed to yeshivish society and I feel more comfortable there.
I'm sorry your YU relatives can be unkind to you and your kids. This wasn't my experience at YU. Everyone I met at YU was really nice, even though I didn't come from that culture and for a while still spoke in a yeshivish accent. I made a lot of friends very easily, many who remain close friends of mine.
Ads don’t mean everybody is doing it. Those ads are aimed at the top tier socioeconomic level in chareidi society. Also, to my mind in certain YU type communities living a less than luxurious privileged lifestyle makes you more or less an outcast. Of course chareidim have their uber privileged folks, but there is more room for the middle class and the poor.
Listen, gezunte heit, I’m happy for people who have the means to go on fancy vacations and whatnot, whether they be YU charedi. I just dislike those who are snotty about it in either camp, and in my experience, the snottiness factor is greater amongst the YU society. That said, it may depend a lot on where the YU community is located geographically. Or it could be that my extended family are just uniquely snotty amongst their YU community, but I tend to doubt that.
Take it from this YU alumnus If you want to send your children to MO schools and camps that have all the bells and whistles that will cost a lot of money If you lean towards the Yeshivish world but are not comfortable with all of its values then the elementary and high schools for both genders are substantially lower YU does offer generous financial assistance and my closest friends and long time chavrusas are both classical B learner earners who despite busy professional schedules are Kovea Itim KaTorah which our RY never viewed as a bdieved option
happy to hear you say it's an anomaly. I can't really say if that's true or not as I only experienced two yeshivas in my life. But glad you didn't experience the same.
And yes, I'm forever grateful for "Rav Leib". He really saved me back then.
Yes. It’s already been pointed that there is too much torah worship around, as opposed to Hashem worship. Borderline AZ.
For example all this 'torah protects' stuff, they will tell you it *really* means 'Hashem protects'. So why don't they say 'Hashem protects'. Because they lose the argument. Once 'Hashem protects' it may have nothing to do with yeshiva torah learning.
to be fair his point is that it is worth the one gadol from a utilitarian perspective because judaism survives primarily through them. i believe that is the historical reality.
the debate would be if that is still the case in the current era of yeshivah for all. it seems to me that the yeshivos are no longer creating even that one gadol, only many wannabee gedolim - who are the main villains of the article.
While us girls didn't suffer the same pressures of bittul Torah, the culture of tochacha and snitching in Bais Yaakov created a culture of mistrust, paranoia, and peer enforced conformity. These harms are not emphasized enough, especially for teens who need to feel like they have comraderie with their friends during the phase they naturally pull away from their parents. Social groups became a minefield of figuring out who was safe or not to have real conversations with and share doubts and questions.
And yes, the rooftop was always the safest place to use our phones and talk movies and boys.
So interesting! I feel like boys and girls education are so closed off from each other. Like I have no clue what goes on in Beis Yaakov and vice versa. I would absolutely love to read a memoir or piece where someone talks about their experiences in Beis Yaakov, if any exist
It's truly horrible. The emphasis on conformity brings out extreme levels of cattiness, meanness, and shallowness. Of course, teen girls are already prone to this, but it's on another level when compared to modox or secular environments. I experienced all 3 and I found that only BY girls had total and complete intolerance for any kind of otherness.
like you said, there is an emphasis on conformity that contributes (besides the natural proclivities), but i think it's more about a lack of being taught certain values - or being taught that some other values matter more than these. in MO schools, students are intentionally taught by design, as a core value, to care about others, to be kind, to include others, and that community matters - values that women also have a natural proclivity for. but in many yeshivish schools, the focus is mainly on tzniyus, the importance of the wife’s role as a shomer from the outside world, and on being a good wife, and on being a good wife, and then some more of that.
Wow! I honestly never experienced anything like snitching in my Bais Yaakov. The worst I can say is that I was kind of overlooked because I didn’t come from a wealth or well connected family. And I was kind of a neb. I probably would have done better being a boy in a yeshiva because I can spend a lot of hours in a row studying and I was a good student. I don’t even know if I would have burned out, I probably would have been very happy with the approval of my rebbeim. Luckily I was born female now that I have become orthoprax in my middle age.
Everyone who opens a Mesivta knows that their job is to watch out for unhealthy pressure. This post represents the anachronistic idea, which permeated public schools at the time too.
I am not saying they do a perfect job, those in charge are human, and they also enjoy the short-term 'success' of seeing a room full of masmidim. But when I call my son's Menahel (in one of those 'difficult to get into' Mesivtos), they will bring up the issue on their own.
Yes, I hope a lot of this is out of date. The tier bes and gimme mesivtos don't have this lachatz currently. There are quite a few tier alefs that do.
And a good part of this post wasn't the pressure but the lack of healthy outlets. Which you think is a good thing as it distracts from single minded focus.
My son is in a Tier Aleph thank you very much. And they are still cognizant of the issue.
The world progressed.
I don't think single-minded focus has to come with pressure. Meet old-timer Talmidei Chachamim and you will see that learning is shmuzing, learning is life, jokes are nerdy ones about a sugya, excitement is about a new sevara (not the fake "Rav Gifter danced with the new Birkas Shmuel" excitement. Or spontaneous dancing at the Siyum Hashas for that matter), and curiosity is how the Shach adds to the machlokes Rishonim.
I'm pretty young and this experience wasn't such a long time time ago. I hope you're right that things have changed and progressed since I've been there but unfortunately I'm skeptical of that.
Good that your children have rebbeim who make sure not to pressure them too much though!
I am afraid that you are either very ignorant about what actually goes on in mesiftos...although there will be lip service paid to learning in healthy and balanced way, many times they will subtly encorage it by treating the highest achievers with more respect...I
I don’t think my sons felt this pressure. They went to a small and new yeshiva ketana, and then they started out in a certain yeshiva gedola. One moved to Chevron and one went to Birkas Mordechai in Beitar (he’s still there but does other stuff also). I’ll have to ask them about the pressure. They are pretty relaxed guys. One of them told me that when he got to yeshiva gedola the guys were obsessed with basketball and soccer because they had never played before. My son was happy to play, but we had a basket in our yard (even in our very frum neighborhood) so he had played before he could walk, so to speak.
Now the girls’ education, that’s a different story altogether…
About thirty years ago, I had a conversation with Reb Boruch Mordechai who told me about another Yeshiva in Eretz Yisroel that he doesn't hold of the pressure they put on the bochurim, he holds יצא שכרו בהפסדו. This was pretty much the opinion of most Yeshivos, besides Telz. (The Yeshiva he was criticizing is run and was started by someone who is a Yishuv graduate, along with a chutznik of a strong Hungarian background.)
The Yeshiva in Israel is well-known among Israelis for its great pressure. In Chutz La'aretz nobody heard of it.
But I do have a strong purity test. I bend my head to the need to send the children to Yeshivos, but I didn't change the standards I demand, and don't receive.
I never promised a guest post. You can read the letter of Reb Chaim Volozhiner and the Hakdamah to Hatevunah.
The snitching mentality is another thing I cannot wrap my head around.
In the Yeshivos I learned, snitching was a social no-no. Unless a bochur was dangerous, his private indiscretions were private. Nobody would dare approach a Mashgiach with a complaint about another bochur's private stash of reading material. If he was damaging others, someone might 'snitch', but I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
Reflecting on it now, there must have been some kind of snitch in one of my Yeshivos, but he made sure to hide his identity; he would never have gotten away with it.
It’s heartbreaking - It’s a shame all Yeshivos do not have Roshei Yeshivot like Rav AY HaKohain Kook o”h. A well worth reading book is Marc Shapiro’s Renewing the Old Sanctifying the New The Unique Vision of Rav Kook - Shabbat Shalom
The issue I had in yeshivah was the opposite, Rebbeim screaming a whole day not to learn too much so you don't burn out, thereby making learning even more pressured.
Really don't appreciate your sarcasm. I wasn't trying to obfuscate the yeshiva and identities so much that no one who knows the yeshiva could guess. Especially because I'm posting under my real name so anyone can easily find out what yeshiva I went to. However, I didn't want this piece to be a referendum on this specific yeshiva but rather just saying my personal experience.
I didn't mean it in a sarcastic way, though I see that's how it may have came off. I have no problem if you say the name of the Yeshivah outright, that's not my point.
Was just trying to brag that I figured out the yeshivah based on your description, that's all.
Text can come off sarcastic when it's not meant to so appreciate that it was unintentional. But yes, good job! And I appreciate you not saying the name outright
There was a Yeshiva in Switzerland called Lucerne. Started by Reb Moshe Soloveitchik (nephew of the Brisker Rav and best childhood friend of Rav Shteinman), it was run like European Yeshivos of old, with space for each bochur to grow. The Baalebatim of Switzerland, those who wanted the Yeshiva run like a Swiss clock, could not handle this and eventually fired him, bringing in Rav Koppelman instead. Rav Koppelman ran the Yeshiva like a playgroup, controlling how many cookies each bochur took during tea time.
Point is, the more American/Harry a Yeshiva is, the more likely it is to misunderstand how to make learning part of normal life. They are more likely to create pressure to show hasmada in younger grades, because they don't have the confidence to allow bochurim to grow.
The English in this Yeshiva is a feature, not a bug. The non-English Yeshivos would not function this way.
If I had to bet, this seems to be describing Philadelphia, created for Yankee Doodle Americans, who are generations away from the European roots of Yeshivos. It's the non-Yeshivishkeit that produces this kind of problem.
I'd honestly appreciate if you didn't do the guessing game in the comments. Yes if you know the yeshiva then you pick up what yeshiva this is but I'd rather this piece not be a specific criticism of that yeshiva.
It is VERY obvious based on the (thinly changed) names and descriptions of the hanhalla and daily schedule, curriculum etc. which Yeshiva is being referred to here. I also went there but at least a decade or two earlier than the author of this. Things were slightly but not much different back then. I’m in my early 50s and still have occasional nightmares that I’m a teenager and It is the first day of Elul Zman and I’m back in that Yeshiva. So don’t accuse me of defending or whitewashing what that Yeshiva is like.
That said, as someone who went there and left, that Yeshiva is not remotely a normal mainstream Yeshiva. In my days “Rav Yaakov” took tremendous pride in “I only take in the best boys” and how many people he rejects. Today from what I hear they are struggling with enrollment. Apparently their reputation has gotten out. It was pretty heavily stressed that we are the elite of the elite and no one else in other yeshivas have our standards. To quote something Rav Yaakov used to say “If you are looking for Olam Hazeh, this Yeshiva is not the place for you”. I know of plenty of people who went to other Yeshiva and discussed their experiences. Other Yeshivas are not like this,
There are other nuances about that Yeshiva and the members of the hanhalla, that need to be added to give a fairer picture. Their alumni who successfully met their ideals would give a very different picture and description on it. But all in all I’m not disagreeing with the author about how toxic that Yeshiva is for many.
Even so, as someone who 100% shares the authors passionate opposition to that Yeshiva and has a son who enrolled in YU to boot, do not blame all Yeshivas for the faults of this one. I also vehemently oppose the fire and brimstone approach this Yeshiva took. Ironically had they been less intense I would probably a lot closer to their ideals today. But, no, I did not have to look to Modern Orthodoxy to find a better balance and normalcy in Judaism.
I very much appreciate hearing from an alum who went to the same Yeshiva, and hearing it was similar even the generation before me. Yes, it is obvious to any alum and to those familiar with the yeshiva which yeshiva it is but I also have gotten a bunch of pm's assuming it's a different yeshiva so it's obscured enough for my purposes.
I'm not convinced my experiences are that unique to this yeshiva, especially hearing from those that went to other yeshivas, even Ner Israel, who read this and said they had similar experiences. But yet, I agree with you that many people are happy in yeshiva and succeed there. The bochurim like me are the ones "killed" for the happy experiences others have.
The world is a complex place and making decisions about to run a Yeshiva is not so easy. From all the hanhalla members and Rebbeim of that Yeshiva there is only one who I question if he truly believed he was doing the best thing for the bochurim by acting the way he did and saying the things he did. Rav Yaakov almost did not accept me because at the farher I said that one of the reasons I want to learn there is הֱוֵי גוֹלֶה לִמְקוֹם תּוֹרָה. He correctly said that anyone who takes the Mishna on such a practical level would probably be damaged by coming to that Yeshiva. His mistake was that he accepted me. (I was told this many years later by the person he mentioned the concern to ) In the sefer Rav Chatzkel recently put out he writes that he went to two different Gedolim because of complaints alumni have on him for stressing becoming a Gadol too much and indicates that he accepts they may be right. Much as I share your opposition to that Yeshiva I do recognize that those heading were humans who made mistakes. Mostly, but not exclusively, with good intentions and a lack of understanding of the true impact of what they were saying. I have no doubt that in YU and the MO world such things happen too. I’m vehemently opposed to the fire and brimstone part of the Yeshivish world and don’t deny for a second that it is a problem that damages some. But it does not define the Yeshivish world. Nor does it negate the downsides of the MO world. Following Rav Meir and practicing תּוֹכוֹ אָכַל, קְלִיפָּתוֹ זָרַק is true about any system that is applied to the masses.
Thanks for the feedback, Shmerel! I disagree, of course, as I left the yeshiva world and am much happier outside of it. However, I hear your perspective and I'm glad you're still thriving in that world. I hope your son at YU loves it as much as I did.
I love how he went to a godol years and years later after he damaged hundreds if not thousands of kids. It's a little late.
His answers on the age of the world and his position on therapy are also pathetic and it's sad he is remotely considered a great moderate man by people.
It sure is a lot better than most other people causing damage in this world. I never heard of any blogger running to anyone objective and trustworthy to see if they are damaging people. I never saw any therapist write anywhere that they may be wrong and damaging people. But I've seen far more damaged by those types than people like Rav Chatzkel. Your beliefs about the age of the world and therapy do not make his viewpoint pathetic.
He was never the main mechanch for hundreds of kids. He was the masgiach in a Yeshiva with a student body of about a hundred that produced a very very large amount of Talmidey Chachomim totally disproportionate to the Yeshiva size. From his POV he was turning people in major Talmidey Chachmim . In most cases he was. The majority of my class would be seen as major success stories and sources of pride had they gone elsewhere for Yeshiva . It was only when those who were not successful came to complain to him that he rethought his message. Most people in his situation do not take such responsibility and find excuses (I was only....they...fill in the blank)
Thank you for posting, Ash! This piece really came from the inner depths of my soul. I hope it's relatable to both those who left the yeshiva world, like me, and to those who are still firmly situated within it.
My dm's are open for any questions, comments or concerns.
I am going to write a response post but I just wanted to thank you for sharing.
This is a conversation we need to have.
Impressive writing. YK!
Beautiful article.
There is some slow and quiet movement and progress on this.
There is a multi-set Hebrew sefer called Be'atzacha Tancheni https://baatzatcha.co.il/ that attempts to address many of these points, and was translated into English as "the real you" (not as good as the Hebrew). Rav Elya Brudny has reportedly said he thinks every Bochur should read it.
https://www.amazon.com/Real-Me-Greatness-Recognizing-Reality/dp/9659207425/ref=sr_1_3?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.KPOSWEarqACbDtovggj0Vw.d5GiUTb5BGKqbZLaCgPmc_7ewgbrNcWL-PoGpwMfj0o&dib_tag=se&qid=1751350550&refinements=p_27%3ARabbi+Yaakov+Butchkovsky&s=books&sr=1-3
Can you summarize his position?
I can lend you the book if you want.
Please
He has on the website summaries and samples of his seforim. https://baatzatcha.co.il/
He also has a weekly newsletter on his website.
Just a heads up in the past few years he did start pivoting to charging for the shiurim, to talk to him etc...
Its an excellent book...changed my life when I was learning in Israel....
Same here
Thank you for writing this.
Do not learn much more than you need to! The individual must take care of his body so that he does not weaken and become ill... He should walk in the late afternoon or early evening... And when it is feasible, he should swim in the river to strengthen his body."
Chafetz Chaim
I gained a bunch from your article, my son is in 11th grade and in a yeshiva and I am fully otd and estranged for no reasons besides he's in a yeshiva and is content there but has zero interest in normal father child relationships, I bring up Jewish concepts constantly with zero engagement, though with my three daughters they are able to discuss and are aware of the concepts I bring whereas with him it's disengagement, healthy athletic fun kid but self-insulating within yeshiva is an odd conundrum indeed
I cherish the quote that I pasted at the top that I found yesterday and got no response from him with that 🙄
I am saddened to read this. My advice to you would be to play the long game. Ultimately, I believe, he will want some relationship with his father. You need to keep reaching out in meaningful ways. Whatever you do, don't get cynical or push back at him. Take the high road and ignore the shtus.
I'll be honest: this is a great piece which is why I published it. But it is also a great example of why you shouldn't raise your kids to be a harry. If you plan on raising your kids in the Yeshivish velt, raise them that way from the beginning. A yeshivish kid would see through most of the BS and understand it's exaggerated. A harry though takes it literally. This is a kid who never heard of bitul Torah until 10th grade! Of course he's going to take it seriously. A yeshivish kid knows bitul Torah is like Lashon Hara and everyone needs to chill.
A similar thing happens when Americans go to Israeli Yeshivos and take the propaganda literally. It's why wannabes end up Etznikim.
Wrong. I think you know what mesivta I learned in, and most of the kids come from a very yeshivish background, yet everyone either buys this perspective throughout the yeshivah years or else joins the "shvache guys" as described in this post. Everyone.
At this intensity? Tbf, I joined the shvache guys immediately while maintaining top grades so I don't know what I was considered.
Yup. Especially the specifics mentioned. Guys disappearing for months with "mono", the pressure to maintain exhaustive learning schedules during bein hazmanim, social status being determined by level of learning (we didn't have grades), leaving yeshiva for any reason being criticized (the good guys never left campus from off shabbos to off shabbos), extra bekius Sedarjm, long shmoneh esrehs, etc etc etc
"social status being determined by level of learning (we didn't have grades),"
Grades being another sign OP is a harry. Or from out of Lakewood, like me.
most of the children of Yeshiva families do not grow up in the very yeshivish communities because the yeshivas are by design located outside of major yeshivish population centers
Love the username... Matches the comment
agreed.
REDACTED BY THE PCP. COMMENT NOT AVAILABLE IN YOUR COUNTRY.
lol
Not been my experience, a lot of yeshivish guys are true believers! At least while they are in the system.
What is a 'Harry'?
A Harry is a guy who is, or pretends to be, yeshivish on the outside but doesn't really measure up. Poser might be a good comparison. But also, a Harry may THINK he's the real deal, not realizing he doesn't have a clue.
You mean all those who claim to live with extraordinary levels of emunah and bitochon yet can hear a dollar bill landing on a carpet a mile away and who look for every loophole going to get a bit more cash? That's maybe 80% of Yeshivaland.
I don't think materialism necessarily factors into whether one is a Harry or not.
So what does? What is 'yeshivish' anyway besides a bunch of chitzonios?
You know, highly yeshivish minhag of putting on a hat and jacket over a T-shirt whilst on vacation for tefillah and claiming that is 'hikoin likras elokechoh'. Complete ritual with zero understanding. As if anyone would stand in front of a king like that.
Unless you are from the UK or you are a fan of Shakespearean dialect, please refrain from words like "whilst" and "amongst." It's "while" and "among" and has been for the past 150 years.
Except amongst the yeshivish trying to sound intelligent.
What do you mean by 'measure up"?
You mean like c70% of "yeshivah guys" where it's all talk the talk and walk the walk but inside they can here a dollar bill drop on a carpet a mile away and will happily drop everything for the latest 'reid in town'? Obsess ever cholent and kugel and food generally like a low class goy? Happily daven shacharis late? That type? - there are an awful lot of them.
Story checks out. For all those saying it's an anamoly, this post describes the experience of the yeshiva I was in for mesivta, and I've heard such things about many other yeshivos as well.
My husband went in the opposite direction from modox to yeshivish but we were never THAT yeshivish, more like “yeshivish lite”. I have very little skin in this game because I’m orthoprax myself at this point, but I think there are downsides and severe pressures in the YU lifestyle as well. From what I can tell there are serious pressures to earn a boatload of money in that society. Like seriously a couple who are both fairly high powered professionals barely making it financially, let alone more average people from more average families. I did worry about my boys spending too many hours in school, but they managed. One seems to have figured out how to spend a healthy amount of time learning and a healthy amount of time on other hobbies. Another was never interested in learning and didn’t pursue any learning beyond high school, I guess you could say he reverted to being modox and that is fine with us. I’m glad I was born female because I’m pretty sure had I been male I would have burned myself out learning. Also it’s much harder for a male to be orthoprax.
I do hear the financial concerns. Many people cautioned me when I was in yeshiva that even if I wanted to I couldn't go to YU because tuition is over 50k a year! Thankfully, the need-based scholarship they offered me was extremely generous and I was able to attend with no issues. I know a lot of otherwise expensive modox institutions give generous scholarships to those in need too. But you're definitely right that the modox community in general tends to be very well off and there's pressure to succeed financially.
There’s another criticism I have of YU that is a little harder for me to pin down. It isn’t all by far, but I really dislike a lot of my YU relatives. I think maybe it’s a culture clash because I’m culturally yeshivish (they don’t know I’m orthoprax). My kids say their YU cousins, not all but many of them, are condescending and unkind. Not to mention the materialism (which exists in the yeshivish lite world but not as intensely). The dati leumi relatives in Israel can also be this way minus the materialism. But maybe the Israelis have an excuse because they see my children as a stand in for all the Israeli chareidim that refuse to serve in the IDF. This can be a bias on my part since I’m more accustomed to yeshivish society and I feel more comfortable there.
I'm sorry your YU relatives can be unkind to you and your kids. This wasn't my experience at YU. Everyone I met at YU was really nice, even though I didn't come from that culture and for a while still spoke in a yeshivish accent. I made a lot of friends very easily, many who remain close friends of mine.
And there is no emphasis on Gadhmiud in the Charedi media ?
If you read my comment you would have seen that I admit that there is, but it is far less intense.
There are tons of ads for exotic vacations for every YT in the Charedi media
Ads don’t mean everybody is doing it. Those ads are aimed at the top tier socioeconomic level in chareidi society. Also, to my mind in certain YU type communities living a less than luxurious privileged lifestyle makes you more or less an outcast. Of course chareidim have their uber privileged folks, but there is more room for the middle class and the poor.
Listen, gezunte heit, I’m happy for people who have the means to go on fancy vacations and whatnot, whether they be YU charedi. I just dislike those who are snotty about it in either camp, and in my experience, the snottiness factor is greater amongst the YU society. That said, it may depend a lot on where the YU community is located geographically. Or it could be that my extended family are just uniquely snotty amongst their YU community, but I tend to doubt that.
Take it from this YU alumnus If you want to send your children to MO schools and camps that have all the bells and whistles that will cost a lot of money If you lean towards the Yeshivish world but are not comfortable with all of its values then the elementary and high schools for both genders are substantially lower YU does offer generous financial assistance and my closest friends and long time chavrusas are both classical B learner earners who despite busy professional schedules are Kovea Itim KaTorah which our RY never viewed as a bdieved option
Despite the glaring issues in our system, this is specific pressure is an anomaly, afaik.
But, wow, what a mafia of yet some more people who never grew up:( these problems are more universal.
Thank goodness for "Reb Leib", a normal person to talk to.
And the memes are great btw;)
happy to hear you say it's an anomaly. I can't really say if that's true or not as I only experienced two yeshivas in my life. But glad you didn't experience the same.
And yes, I'm forever grateful for "Rav Leib". He really saved me back then.
Glad you liked the memes :)
many such cases.
And I actually agree with him....it is a feature in certain yeshivos.
I heard bishem a adom gadol that its worth sacrificing many bochurim so klal yisroel will have gedolim.
Horrifying. It's Nosen Zaroh Lamolech but for Torah
Yes. It’s already been pointed that there is too much torah worship around, as opposed to Hashem worship. Borderline AZ.
For example all this 'torah protects' stuff, they will tell you it *really* means 'Hashem protects'. So why don't they say 'Hashem protects'. Because they lose the argument. Once 'Hashem protects' it may have nothing to do with yeshiva torah learning.
correct.
Rav Dessler said that to justify the yeshiva system. 1000 go in and one gadol emerges.
It's easy for the "one" to say that
to be fair his point is that it is worth the one gadol from a utilitarian perspective because judaism survives primarily through them. i believe that is the historical reality.
the debate would be if that is still the case in the current era of yeshivah for all. it seems to me that the yeshivos are no longer creating even that one gadol, only many wannabee gedolim - who are the main villains of the article.
He’s quoting a Gemara!!
He’s quoting a Gemara!!
He’s quoting a Gemara!!
The Gemara never says anything about doing it intentionally
Not quite. The Gemara says that 1000 go in and one comes out but it doesn’t say anywhere that the other 999 are destroyed.
Yes, but of the 999, how many were ruined?
While us girls didn't suffer the same pressures of bittul Torah, the culture of tochacha and snitching in Bais Yaakov created a culture of mistrust, paranoia, and peer enforced conformity. These harms are not emphasized enough, especially for teens who need to feel like they have comraderie with their friends during the phase they naturally pull away from their parents. Social groups became a minefield of figuring out who was safe or not to have real conversations with and share doubts and questions.
And yes, the rooftop was always the safest place to use our phones and talk movies and boys.
So interesting! I feel like boys and girls education are so closed off from each other. Like I have no clue what goes on in Beis Yaakov and vice versa. I would absolutely love to read a memoir or piece where someone talks about their experiences in Beis Yaakov, if any exist
There was a blog tales out of Beis Yaakov
https://talesoutofbaisyaakov.wordpress.com/
Would you like to write a Guest Post? My DMs are open
I find the negative energy worse in girl schools actually, or maybe that it arises just earlier on, like already in early elementary.
And it often comes directly from the teachers, not only from the kids. But that may be anecdotal.
It's truly horrible. The emphasis on conformity brings out extreme levels of cattiness, meanness, and shallowness. Of course, teen girls are already prone to this, but it's on another level when compared to modox or secular environments. I experienced all 3 and I found that only BY girls had total and complete intolerance for any kind of otherness.
> I experienced all 3
as a teen!?
Yes. As a teen. BY --> modox HS --> private secular HS. My OTD journey was no private affair.
Curious if you want to share more.
😅 I'm not so interested in giving a full personal account. But it's worth pondering. Maybe I'll come up with something for the DMs
like you said, there is an emphasis on conformity that contributes (besides the natural proclivities), but i think it's more about a lack of being taught certain values - or being taught that some other values matter more than these. in MO schools, students are intentionally taught by design, as a core value, to care about others, to be kind, to include others, and that community matters - values that women also have a natural proclivity for. but in many yeshivish schools, the focus is mainly on tzniyus, the importance of the wife’s role as a shomer from the outside world, and on being a good wife, and on being a good wife, and then some more of that.
Wow! I honestly never experienced anything like snitching in my Bais Yaakov. The worst I can say is that I was kind of overlooked because I didn’t come from a wealth or well connected family. And I was kind of a neb. I probably would have done better being a boy in a yeshiva because I can spend a lot of hours in a row studying and I was a good student. I don’t even know if I would have burned out, I probably would have been very happy with the approval of my rebbeim. Luckily I was born female now that I have become orthoprax in my middle age.
<3 i relate to so much here, especially about elul zman. i wrote of similar experiences in my most recent post: https://open.substack.com/pub/hormeze/p/the-crane-dance?r=23qvuz&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
Everyone who opens a Mesivta knows that their job is to watch out for unhealthy pressure. This post represents the anachronistic idea, which permeated public schools at the time too.
I am not saying they do a perfect job, those in charge are human, and they also enjoy the short-term 'success' of seeing a room full of masmidim. But when I call my son's Menahel (in one of those 'difficult to get into' Mesivtos), they will bring up the issue on their own.
Boruch Hashem Achshar Dara.
Yes, I hope a lot of this is out of date. The tier bes and gimme mesivtos don't have this lachatz currently. There are quite a few tier alefs that do.
And a good part of this post wasn't the pressure but the lack of healthy outlets. Which you think is a good thing as it distracts from single minded focus.
i was recently in a tier beis yeshivah and my experience was as said in the article " less pressure with the same hashkafa"
there seems to be few r'Leibs in the yeshivah velt, most yeshivah hanhalah were after all educated in the same system that they perpetuate.
My son is in a Tier Aleph thank you very much. And they are still cognizant of the issue.
The world progressed.
I don't think single-minded focus has to come with pressure. Meet old-timer Talmidei Chachamim and you will see that learning is shmuzing, learning is life, jokes are nerdy ones about a sugya, excitement is about a new sevara (not the fake "Rav Gifter danced with the new Birkas Shmuel" excitement. Or spontaneous dancing at the Siyum Hashas for that matter), and curiosity is how the Shach adds to the machlokes Rishonim.
God forbid your son be Beis teir. Lol
I'm pretty young and this experience wasn't such a long time time ago. I hope you're right that things have changed and progressed since I've been there but unfortunately I'm skeptical of that.
Good that your children have rebbeim who make sure not to pressure them too much though!
I am afraid that you are either very ignorant about what actually goes on in mesiftos...although there will be lip service paid to learning in healthy and balanced way, many times they will subtly encorage it by treating the highest achievers with more respect...I
The world of sports, business, and acting also treats the highest achievers with respect.
But, in Mesivtos, the Rebbe will keep an eye out for someone who seems to be acting unnaturally.
I don’t think my sons felt this pressure. They went to a small and new yeshiva ketana, and then they started out in a certain yeshiva gedola. One moved to Chevron and one went to Birkas Mordechai in Beitar (he’s still there but does other stuff also). I’ll have to ask them about the pressure. They are pretty relaxed guys. One of them told me that when he got to yeshiva gedola the guys were obsessed with basketball and soccer because they had never played before. My son was happy to play, but we had a basket in our yard (even in our very frum neighborhood) so he had played before he could walk, so to speak.
Now the girls’ education, that’s a different story altogether…
About thirty years ago, I had a conversation with Reb Boruch Mordechai who told me about another Yeshiva in Eretz Yisroel that he doesn't hold of the pressure they put on the bochurim, he holds יצא שכרו בהפסדו. This was pretty much the opinion of most Yeshivos, besides Telz. (The Yeshiva he was criticizing is run and was started by someone who is a Yishuv graduate, along with a chutznik of a strong Hungarian background.)
You have the strongest moral purity test I've ever seen. Only one type of yeshiva is real and from sinai. And it's not one any of us attended.
(I'm still excited to publish a guest post from you explaining the single minded tachlos of Yeshivos)
The Yeshiva in Israel is well-known among Israelis for its great pressure. In Chutz La'aretz nobody heard of it.
But I do have a strong purity test. I bend my head to the need to send the children to Yeshivos, but I didn't change the standards I demand, and don't receive.
I never promised a guest post. You can read the letter of Reb Chaim Volozhiner and the Hakdamah to Hatevunah.
The snitching mentality is another thing I cannot wrap my head around.
In the Yeshivos I learned, snitching was a social no-no. Unless a bochur was dangerous, his private indiscretions were private. Nobody would dare approach a Mashgiach with a complaint about another bochur's private stash of reading material. If he was damaging others, someone might 'snitch', but I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
Reflecting on it now, there must have been some kind of snitch in one of my Yeshivos, but he made sure to hide his identity; he would never have gotten away with it.
Yes. Another sign of the yeshiva’s inmate harriness.
It’s heartbreaking - It’s a shame all Yeshivos do not have Roshei Yeshivot like Rav AY HaKohain Kook o”h. A well worth reading book is Marc Shapiro’s Renewing the Old Sanctifying the New The Unique Vision of Rav Kook - Shabbat Shalom
The issue I had in yeshivah was the opposite, Rebbeim screaming a whole day not to learn too much so you don't burn out, thereby making learning even more pressured.
Good job "hiding" their identities (not really).
The description of the Rosh Yeshivah "Reb Sholom" is a dead giveaway.
I am a bit surprised about how the mashgiach "R' Chatzkel" is portrayed, I assumed him to be more similar to the Rosh Yeshiva.
Really don't appreciate your sarcasm. I wasn't trying to obfuscate the yeshiva and identities so much that no one who knows the yeshiva could guess. Especially because I'm posting under my real name so anyone can easily find out what yeshiva I went to. However, I didn't want this piece to be a referendum on this specific yeshiva but rather just saying my personal experience.
I didn't mean it in a sarcastic way, though I see that's how it may have came off. I have no problem if you say the name of the Yeshivah outright, that's not my point.
Was just trying to brag that I figured out the yeshivah based on your description, that's all.
Text can come off sarcastic when it's not meant to so appreciate that it was unintentional. But yes, good job! And I appreciate you not saying the name outright
There was a Yeshiva in Switzerland called Lucerne. Started by Reb Moshe Soloveitchik (nephew of the Brisker Rav and best childhood friend of Rav Shteinman), it was run like European Yeshivos of old, with space for each bochur to grow. The Baalebatim of Switzerland, those who wanted the Yeshiva run like a Swiss clock, could not handle this and eventually fired him, bringing in Rav Koppelman instead. Rav Koppelman ran the Yeshiva like a playgroup, controlling how many cookies each bochur took during tea time.
Point is, the more American/Harry a Yeshiva is, the more likely it is to misunderstand how to make learning part of normal life. They are more likely to create pressure to show hasmada in younger grades, because they don't have the confidence to allow bochurim to grow.
The English in this Yeshiva is a feature, not a bug. The non-English Yeshivos would not function this way.
If I had to bet, this seems to be describing Philadelphia, created for Yankee Doodle Americans, who are generations away from the European roots of Yeshivos. It's the non-Yeshivishkeit that produces this kind of problem.
C'mon zichron this was an easy one. It ain't Philadelphia.
I'd honestly appreciate if you didn't do the guessing game in the comments. Yes if you know the yeshiva then you pick up what yeshiva this is but I'd rather this piece not be a specific criticism of that yeshiva.
Around ten people or so have guessed correctly based on my DMs
All yeshivos are generations away from the European roots of yeshivos. Some are better than others at the pretence that they are not.
That's not the reason Reb Moshe left. The reason why he left is connected with the Yossele Shuchmacher affair.
Reb Moshe was happy that people claimed that, so no machlokes was generated. But that story is not true, and doesn't even make sense.
As if your reason makes any more sense...
It is VERY obvious based on the (thinly changed) names and descriptions of the hanhalla and daily schedule, curriculum etc. which Yeshiva is being referred to here. I also went there but at least a decade or two earlier than the author of this. Things were slightly but not much different back then. I’m in my early 50s and still have occasional nightmares that I’m a teenager and It is the first day of Elul Zman and I’m back in that Yeshiva. So don’t accuse me of defending or whitewashing what that Yeshiva is like.
That said, as someone who went there and left, that Yeshiva is not remotely a normal mainstream Yeshiva. In my days “Rav Yaakov” took tremendous pride in “I only take in the best boys” and how many people he rejects. Today from what I hear they are struggling with enrollment. Apparently their reputation has gotten out. It was pretty heavily stressed that we are the elite of the elite and no one else in other yeshivas have our standards. To quote something Rav Yaakov used to say “If you are looking for Olam Hazeh, this Yeshiva is not the place for you”. I know of plenty of people who went to other Yeshiva and discussed their experiences. Other Yeshivas are not like this,
There are other nuances about that Yeshiva and the members of the hanhalla, that need to be added to give a fairer picture. Their alumni who successfully met their ideals would give a very different picture and description on it. But all in all I’m not disagreeing with the author about how toxic that Yeshiva is for many.
Even so, as someone who 100% shares the authors passionate opposition to that Yeshiva and has a son who enrolled in YU to boot, do not blame all Yeshivas for the faults of this one. I also vehemently oppose the fire and brimstone approach this Yeshiva took. Ironically had they been less intense I would probably a lot closer to their ideals today. But, no, I did not have to look to Modern Orthodoxy to find a better balance and normalcy in Judaism.
I very much appreciate hearing from an alum who went to the same Yeshiva, and hearing it was similar even the generation before me. Yes, it is obvious to any alum and to those familiar with the yeshiva which yeshiva it is but I also have gotten a bunch of pm's assuming it's a different yeshiva so it's obscured enough for my purposes.
I'm not convinced my experiences are that unique to this yeshiva, especially hearing from those that went to other yeshivas, even Ner Israel, who read this and said they had similar experiences. But yet, I agree with you that many people are happy in yeshiva and succeed there. The bochurim like me are the ones "killed" for the happy experiences others have.
The world is a complex place and making decisions about to run a Yeshiva is not so easy. From all the hanhalla members and Rebbeim of that Yeshiva there is only one who I question if he truly believed he was doing the best thing for the bochurim by acting the way he did and saying the things he did. Rav Yaakov almost did not accept me because at the farher I said that one of the reasons I want to learn there is הֱוֵי גוֹלֶה לִמְקוֹם תּוֹרָה. He correctly said that anyone who takes the Mishna on such a practical level would probably be damaged by coming to that Yeshiva. His mistake was that he accepted me. (I was told this many years later by the person he mentioned the concern to ) In the sefer Rav Chatzkel recently put out he writes that he went to two different Gedolim because of complaints alumni have on him for stressing becoming a Gadol too much and indicates that he accepts they may be right. Much as I share your opposition to that Yeshiva I do recognize that those heading were humans who made mistakes. Mostly, but not exclusively, with good intentions and a lack of understanding of the true impact of what they were saying. I have no doubt that in YU and the MO world such things happen too. I’m vehemently opposed to the fire and brimstone part of the Yeshivish world and don’t deny for a second that it is a problem that damages some. But it does not define the Yeshivish world. Nor does it negate the downsides of the MO world. Following Rav Meir and practicing תּוֹכוֹ אָכַל, קְלִיפָּתוֹ זָרַק is true about any system that is applied to the masses.
Thanks for the feedback, Shmerel! I disagree, of course, as I left the yeshiva world and am much happier outside of it. However, I hear your perspective and I'm glad you're still thriving in that world. I hope your son at YU loves it as much as I did.
I love how he went to a godol years and years later after he damaged hundreds if not thousands of kids. It's a little late.
His answers on the age of the world and his position on therapy are also pathetic and it's sad he is remotely considered a great moderate man by people.
It sure is a lot better than most other people causing damage in this world. I never heard of any blogger running to anyone objective and trustworthy to see if they are damaging people. I never saw any therapist write anywhere that they may be wrong and damaging people. But I've seen far more damaged by those types than people like Rav Chatzkel. Your beliefs about the age of the world and therapy do not make his viewpoint pathetic.
Ummm that's totally different. If I was the main mechanic for hundreds of kids and not an anonymous blogger I'd be more careful.
He was never the main mechanch for hundreds of kids. He was the masgiach in a Yeshiva with a student body of about a hundred that produced a very very large amount of Talmidey Chachomim totally disproportionate to the Yeshiva size. From his POV he was turning people in major Talmidey Chachmim . In most cases he was. The majority of my class would be seen as major success stories and sources of pride had they gone elsewhere for Yeshiva . It was only when those who were not successful came to complain to him that he rethought his message. Most people in his situation do not take such responsibility and find excuses (I was only....they...fill in the blank)