To clarify something that has come up in the comments and in emails, this was not a post about masturbation. It is a post about movies and internet. Ash thinks these are technically okay but our avoidance is wise beyond belief. I'm adding that is not just wise, there are issurim at play which is why the rabonim assured these things, not because of their prophetic vision as to where this can lead.
My views on masturbation are much more nuanced.
In short, halacha is clear that it is assur, and I can vouch that people like Reb Moshe and the gr'a to name two from a long list of kedoshim, were as healthy minded as can be despite their struggles with avoiding their inclinations.
That said, (1) it's considered a huge *maalah* to be strong in this area, while the *norm* is to fall and fall countless times.
(2) We are biologically disposed to feel like worthless garbage after doing so, and we must be taught that those feelings are neither holy nor helpful. They're demoralizing and inhibit growth in other areas, and we need to be made aware that is normal and that we're not the most awful people in the world. This is something many bachurim silently struggle with and it eats them away. They feel like phonies both while davening and while learning and with no one to talk to they think they are alone. Every yeshiva that doesn't have someone telling these things to their hormone-raging students is setting most of them up to fall horribly short of what they can be, if not way worse Rl.
And once again, this does not justify the action - it means that there is a growth process. And every win - because unlike finishing a mesechta, simply "not giving in" feels extremely inglorious ("I'm just not doing something I shouldn't do regardless") - is actually a huge milestone, and every loss means nothing more than I'm human and I'm not there yet. The time for teshuva will come, but feeling awful and inhibiting growth in general is maaseh yetzer, not teshuva.
Also, teshuva is about being a better person. Being able to go three more days than previously, or a week, means you're doing something right which means you actually are on the teshuva path. The only way to fall off this path is by not trying. (I highly recommend GYE to this end.)
There plenty more to say but that just about summarizes it.
This post was specifically about movies and internet, things prior that actively feed the desires and add extra nisyonos to said issue. That's what my footnote was for. And even with that I was uber-clear that one had to know where he is holding. That was the point of this post.
Yeah. I heard one mashgiach from a chassidish yehivah from Antwerp claim, in a public shiur, that none of his bochurim have ever had this problem, because they all live in a complete atmosphere of kedusha and if one did, they would come and discuss it with him.
Just more chareidi self-delusion. As they say 90% of men masturbate and 10% lie.
Seriously speaking, Leka Darca Achrina has reasonable boundaries. No one says you need to buy everything online to avoid tznius issues or wear blurry contacts. Perhaps movies are widespread enough to say Leka Darka Achrina.
It sounds like a tremendous chiddush to say that one can willingly, on his own volition, go to a place that has woman not dressed modestly and chalk it up to ליכא דרכא אחרינא just because it is "widespread". I'm not even sure I know what that means.
It may be true that if one is not holding yet by not watching, he also has this heter of ליכא דרכא אחרינא until he graduates - I hear that sevara very shtark - but other than that it sound like quite a chiddush, and a biased one at that.
Idk the specific teshuva of Hagaon Reb Moshe but the subway/going outside is considered necessary to live in the world. I think your misunderstanding me.
Thousands of Charedim travel by public transport and/or interact with immodestly dressed women. You might be mechalek between parnossoh and culture, but that is not codified in halochoh.
אל תשמח ישראל אל גיל כעמים is not formally codified in halocho.
What's the difference in halochoh? Wbo says business is ok but culture is not? The difference is not codified in halochoh. Only chareidim make a difference but that whole argument is circular.
test is saying that watching movies is an important of the Torah u'Madda ethos, as important as going to work (well, not for chareidim...) I tend to agree. Torah u'Madda, understood holistically, is not just about math, science, and medicine. It includes literature, music, sports, and entertainment. It's an all-encompassing embrace of secular culture, and is a tremendous mitzwah.
Idk what you're talking about. There's no heter to be "cultured" at the expense of issurim. It still can be that it's too hard to avoid movies and culture and the yetzer hara is strong, but a justification that doesn't make.
Even in this shailah he's asking about young girls not immodestly dressed women, but leaving that aside, he agrees that if it will lead to hirhur it is "categorically assur" as stated in shulman's post. Which movie doesn't have girls who aren't specifically pretty?
You can decide to let your kids watch but don't do it out of tzidkus. Do it because it's too hard not to, like part two of this post. (Btw fwiw, I think the article is excellent and is the only solution to struggling, growing yidden)
I'm not entirely sure of the relevance to our discussion but yes, because the onus is on the man to not stare. Tznius is about covering up ervah, parts that are usually covered. We care about the women living normal lives as well and humans interact with their faces so that's not something that gets covered up. Tznius is not only for men not to look, it's for the women to respect their bodies as well. And so on.
Tzniyus if far more complicated than that simplistic view. Arms and legs are not ervah. The other problem is that hardly any of hilchos tzniyus is codified in rishonim/acharonim.
A pretty face is far more erotic than an elbow. Why is there absolutely no restriction on women putting up making up, to make themselves even more attractive, and then walking in the street on shabbos/YT? Or hosting males for meals? As long as they cover their elbows, it's muttar l'chatchiloh (in most mainstream yeshivish communities, anyway). Odd, no?
I know you're not going to see it my way, but every part of this post just makes me happy that I am a בן חורין and no longer part of this insanity.
At the end of a long day, instead of being able to relax and enjoy the amazing media that's available to us nowadays, you have to spoil it by telling yourself "I am someone who is incapable of doing the real razon Hashem, and so, because I can't help myself and I'm incapable of controlling my yetzer harah I will indulge in this piece of tummah that is soiling my soul that I will have to answer for when I die."
I do not know a single person who came out of the Yeshiva system that hasn't been deeply hurt from these messages that we are taught to tell ourselves.
You can raise your kids secular with strong technology limits and safeguards - Even if you fail and your child ends up a dopamine addeled, brain rot ADHD monkey, at least they're not being raised with an ever-present toxic guilt that seeps into their pores and ruins their perspective on themselves.
I hate to say it, but I agree with Ben Torah over here. I'm not getting into the halachic sugya - personally, I feel if the movie's tznius standards are what one would generally see in the streets its fine (the whole issur of Leka Darka Achrina at least by the gemara is when women are revealing what they WOULDN'T normally reveal what is in the streets). That does rule out many PG13 and above movies, but that is fine, as kosher rules out many restaurants.
But Shulman's approach of doing something wrong knowingly doesn't sit well with me and doesn't seem psychologically healthy. In fact, if one does indeed need to do it for whatever psychological reason, shouldn't that in itself be Leka Darka Achrina and be muttar?
1. That's your interpretation that it's about "what's on the street". The simple understanding has to do with ervah, which doesn't change if non-Jews/not-frum people are lax.
2. My approach, which doesn't sit well with you, is necessary for anyone who is growing. How do you expect a baal teshuva to become a baal teshuva if he needs to give everything up at once. There are dozens of teshuvos in halacha that a baal teshuva does not need to give everything at once. If I'm not mistaken, Reb Moshe calls is being mechalel one shabbos to save a hundred (I'll try to locate), for example. Even though the baal teshuva knows it's wrong acc. to halacha to eat McDonalds. The approach I am taking is simply accepting the reality, which is perfectly healthy if you think about it (though I guess you have, but your response seems pretty off the cuff, not from experience).
3. To your final point, as I stated above: https://daastorah.substack.com/p/guest-post-why-shulman-is-raising/comment/124282425 - "it may be true that if one is not holding yet by not watching, he also has this heter of ליכא דרכא אחרינא until he graduates - I hear that sevara very shtark" - but that itself only comes with the limitations of "not holding there yet" which means, by definition, that one has to appreciate that this is a growth process. As I said, it's very personal and tailored, and no one should get bent of shape thinking that "o no I may never watch movies again" - you can. I guess if you do it wrong without sechel/guidance it can be detrimental but that goes with anything.
As far as halacha, I'm no posek, but I am pretty sure you can go shopping for fun. According to this logic you can never leave the house except for business,
But (a) I personally hear a strong chiluk, and (b) even if I come around to your view, this is still very much the charedi position.
The chiluk I hear (very well) is that we are allowed to live life. That includes parks and shopping. Movies is a whole new genre, something a home can generally do without. Bringing that into the home and pretending it's necessary is a chiddush.
But if so it could be if that is the way you were brought up and it's really hard to live without that it taka is like going to the park.
Another chiluk is that they place attractive ladies in the movie on purpose and you're putting yourself in a particularly tight spot halachically, as opposed to outside where you aren't focusing in a scene being intentionally presented to you to attract you. I, personally, have a much easier time being careful outside than while watching on a screen for a lot of reasons. It may just be me. But I'm being honest.
I'm only not going to agree because I believe there is a God and He expressed Himself in His Torah. If that is all fake, I somewhat agree to what you are saying.
I welcome a discussion about why I believe what I do privately if your interested, but yes, this post certainly assumes the Torah is true and that halacha matters.
I'll just add, I know hundreds of people who came out of yeshiva very healthy and happy and I'm sorry you didn't have the right people to cater to your concerns.
I'm not denying that lots of people leave the system healthy and happy - I am healthy and happy. But ask any of these healthy and happy people if they were hurt by the frum approach to shimras anynayim and shimiras habris - and the whole sinning, guilt, teshuvah, breaking you kabaalos and sinning again, etc. cycle. Not everyone is keen to acknowledge the trauma and the weight of this stuff that we were subjected to since we were young teenagers - but it's definitely there. (Some old reflections of mine on this topic: https://malimaalah.wixsite.com/offthederechthoughts/post/masturbation-an-otd-ben-torah-s-perspective)
Wanting and yearning to be better is not called being "hurt".
And if you want to discuss which system is healthier and happier with less overall "hurt", the depression in the cold, dark, godless world hurts many more people far more intensely. But these discussions and comparisons are futile because all that really matters is if it's true. If you're right, that depressing reality is true and blissful ignorance isn't a good alternative. If I'm right, the pain caused by not being your best is to be dealt with.
I also agree that in a lot of yeshivos they avoid discussing these issues and that is a huge problem which does hurt many people. I don't condone that one bit.
I'll add another point, the atheists love pretending that they feel awful after masturbation because of their idiotic spiritual teaching, when we all know that there is a chemical element, PCD, or the dopamine crash and prolactin release. Sure, the mind adds the fear and religious shame, but that's not teshuva or anything that comes from a good place; it's biology and yetzer hara. Anyone with healthy spiritual guidance is taught this and is guided to deal his feelings (very much along the lines of the second part of my article).
I agree, as I said. I don't like the way it's taught. "I also agree that in a lot of yeshivos they avoid discussing these issues and that is a huge problem which does hurt many people. I don't condone that one bit."
I am very involved with many mental health professionals, and no, atheism and denying the Torah isn't the only answer. Sorry.
Also if you read the post, in part one I wasn't explaining how to teach and discuss these things with young adults, I was explaining our culture.
Yes I'm a "fundamentalist". That's assumed in the post. We can have the conversation about why I am, and circle back but you don't want to have that conversation. You want to presume Judaism is a fakery and poke holes having already concluded that. I don't know why you need to go there - if Judaism is fake, there are hundreds of easy holes to poke, this is the least of them.
But in this specific conversation, Taylor's music is assur because that's what the poskim understand to be retzon Hashem.
It's unfortunate that we have terrible art in the Jewish world and people need Taylor to find that level of beauty.
But once again, presuming Judaism, and orthodox Judaism at that, there's nothing you you don't understand.
You are not a fundementalist. You just think you are. A fundementalist would not be blogging here. The rabbonim will not permit what you are doing. It's not parnossoh.
Well, this has been a fascinating (distinctly male and yeshivish) discussion. Personally, I respect (and follow in my own life) Rabbi Shulman’s shita.
It’s very convenient being a BT. My kids know that we(myself and my husband) like, for example, Simon and Garfunkel. . True, no problem with Kol isha, but one could have other problems with it. Sports is something my husband has always been into, so he is “kovea itim” for it, giving it a few minutes between his hours of Torah study.
My kids know that I try my best to live up to Hashem’s Word. They also know I’m human.
You can raise a very normal family as a Ben and Bas Torah especially as a BT and really shep a lot of Nachas from your children and aineklach with a lot of Tefilos work and being proper role models and having access to great rabbonim and a community that welcomes you and your family as part of the Torah world in terms of chavrusas and friends. You can also deal with your families of origin by seeing them on such days as Thanksgiving and making sure they are part of your simchas
The other use of our TV is when we have annual Super Bowl party for two very close friends who were roommates with my wife back when they all were singles on the Upper West Side and their husbands who are both RIETS Musmachim one of whom is a masmid atzum and the other who is a chaplain at several nursing homes and gives shiurim at neighborhood shuls We have all been attending each others simchas and RL smachos throughout the years Otger than that TV plays a marginal role in our lives We did binge on Shtisel which was very interesting and I watched Fauda which despite its violence and borderline pritzus clearly showed what kind of animals Hamas consists of
We would walk through fire for the RIETS RY who have had the most Hashpaah on our lives and one day many years ago we tossed my extensive collection of late 1960s and early 1970s LPs from the greatest bands of that era because we felt they were inappropriate and inconsistent with raising a Torah committed family We still have aTV but we only watch Fox News and an occasional Yankees game
I'm surprised no one distinguished between those who are baalei aliya (on a positive growth track) and those who are not, the latter of whom can further be divided into those who can more or less coast and those who struggle. Someone who is shayach to being a ben aliya generally ought to follow all Torah ideals including halacha with "all his heart, soul and strength," which is the general approach of Shulman. There are many, almost certainly most, in yeshiva who will not live their best Torah life on that path. They need a positive path towards their best life and any baal sechel today should see that gains can be made in important areas when leniencies are found in others. You have to play to each individual's strengths and beware of the tragic harm that is unjustified even, at times, by halacha, provided there is proper horaa) of raising a child by only (or predominantly) playing to his weaknesses, even if you say "it's ok, you're still working on it." Just coasting is such a waste. And those who are struggling need even more personalized guidance to being their best selves. It recognizes that Shulman's approach is distantly aspirational and their only path to shleimus requires what I heard an important Rav call triage. Meaning, you have to have a process of determining priorities that depends on sechel and possible outcomes. And the most important priority is always enough long term metal health and confidence to lead a successful life of Torah. If the kid is going to wind up a mess with no shaychus to shleimus at all, the whole conversation of halacha is irrelevant. This is one meaning of אם אין דרך ארץ אין תורה.
I should add that not only did everyone struggle at times, but even bnei aliya sometimes (often?) find themselves in circumstances not addressed by halacha and that do not lend themselves to easy shaalos aside from which so many people do not have realistic access to a Rav when needed. One example is ongoing illness, when hours and hours of lying around over weeks and months can drive you nuts. Is watching something (there is a definite distinction in there between trash and humanly interesting that obviously applies) occasionally in that context ok? What about the illness of a family member that just causes ongoing stress that makes learning difficult and increases the need to enter another world for a while? Or general challenges dealing with stress? I don't think these sort of questions fit neatly into halachic categories (I certainly don't accept Ash's leka darka achrina chidush, in part because it's the wrong extension of that source. Meaning, that source is dealing with a case in which there is no benefit to walking past the women at all. Leka darka achrina is the wrong halachic construct outside of that context). The triage model is often more appropriate here, even especially for bnei aliya in extreme circumstances. The most basic test it always has to pass, however, is kol maasecha leshem shamayim.
An absolutist view of halacha is, in my view, clearly the Torah's intent, but (a) that means the whole Torah - not just the parts that made it into the shulchan aruch and got named "halacha" with proper balancing of all conversations - and (b) applying it across the board in a dor that can't handle it lacks sechel, even with Shulman's approach. I will say that when it comes to teshuva, especially in Tishrei, he's 100% right. Even though you know change is not realistic in certain areas, your teshuva is 100% real if you can acknowledge that what you are doing is against the Torah but that despite your efforts you find that you simply can't achieve what's called for. Your theoretical intent not to repeat those behaviors if possible is absolutely enough to qualify as full teshuva and you can celebrate full forgiveness and kappara and a brand new slate with everyone else.
Another point you're bringing up that I mentioned briefly at the end but didn't get into is that we can't say everything is assur and I'm going to do it anyways. We also have to not think about certain things. We don't daven like they used to, we don't learn like they used to, we are constantly disregarding halachos is so many areas, and to focus on it all consciously and just say "I'm not holding there yet" isn't even an option. But then again, we can't let everything slide either. This is Reb Dessler's famous nekudas habechirah point.
For example, an actual baal teshuva shouldn't even think about movies being a problem. He first needs to get Shabbos and kashrus in order, or something like that. For his current struggles, he needs to take this triage approach. After those become routine, he focuses on the next, and he grows and grows.
For most of us, movies and internet are a struggle within our nekudas habechirah. We live with the struggle of shemiras einayim like never before and it's not something new. Unless his life is spiraling out of control in other areas, this is a classic thing to be working on.
Yeshivaland doesn't view halochoh like you suggest. A concept like 'a chumrah in hilchos niddoh is a kulloh in hilchos sholom bayis' is alien to Yeshivaland. You have to understand, they spend all day, in a bubble chamber, day after day, studying personless texts and mixing with people that think exactly like them and believe exactly like them. They don't understand the people side of torah, after all the people side is missing from their texts. They don't look at shu'T in their historical perspective. For some unnown reason they give complete featality to a very machmir rabbi from Radin from 150 years ago, and seem to ignore almost every other source of halochoh.
There is a reason why, thankfully, the general sum output of Kollelland is ignored by rabbonim that actually run kehillos and deal with human beings outside the echo chamber, who live real lives.
Very well put, thanks. This is really why part one (halacha) comes before part two (slow growth). If part one is meaningless, you have no "heter" to use part two indiscriminately.
I always enjoy how you put things, you're very insightful.
There is a point I think I should add about your citation of the Gemara in Nidah 13b that I sense you would value. These are midrashic sources and based on what I’ve learned, I’m not comfortable with publicizing them in their apparent simple meaning. I have no problem with individuals interpreting them that way in their own learning, although if given the opportunity I would always warn them about it. That is just not how I learned to interpret midrashim, especially as a student of Maharal but even without that approach. The point of a Midrash is always the very specific point being made - not just to emphasize the severity of something, for example. At first glance, it seems as you apply it - it’s so bad that one is not brought into the area separated for God. Wow, that sounds bad. But what in the world does מחיצתו של הקב”ה mean? Does everyone else get brought in there? Why is that the consequence and not a thousand and one others? Are there 74 other consequences that are worse? Pick some other awful sounding consequence for something else. Why are they not flipped? If you don’t have a proposed understanding of the Midrash, my feeling is you should not use it publicly to make it a point. Just making people fear something indiscriminately to my knowledge is exactly not what the Midrash is there for. If we know what it’s teaching us specifically, we can do something with it, limit it to its intent and perhaps even be empowered by it instead of abashed. Without knowing exactly what this Midrash means, there is a danger that it will prove to be little more than fear mongering. I understand your basic point was really just to support how seriously you take these halachos. That’s reasonable. But then you emphasized how bad it sounded and this topic in particular, as you acknowledge in your first comment, is especially fraught and deserves more care than that.
Charedim don't learn midrash like gemoroh. Learning midrash like gemorroh, focusing on each and every word and phrase is called 'parshanut' and is very Tziyoni/Modox.
Charedim take a midrash, pull out it's general theme, and give fiery mussar based on that theme.
I don't know what you're talking about. I'm in the charedi community and this is how the traditional mefarshim and baalei machshava explain midrashim and is how my Rabbeim and rashei yeshiva taught. Certainly Rav Moshe Shapiro and Rav Hutner taught this way and ybl"c Rav Ahron Lopiansky. You're probably talking about standard yeshiva shmuzim, which are part of the discussion about yeshiva education but are generally given to bochurim who are not yet holding by learning it seriously. And yes, I know, parts of the charedi community of adults are like what you describe but only parts of it. The tzioni/modox you refer to do not typically learn midrash like the yeshiva mesorah I am describing.
And how widespread are Reb Moshe Shapiro and Rav Hutner's teachings in most chareidi yeshivos? I didn't say no chareidim ever learn parshanut did I? Those two are the exceptions that prove the rule.
I understand where you're coming from but I still find this comment unnecessarily unkind. I know it's the blogosphere and it's better (far better, even) than much of what's here, so I don't mean to be critical. I may find I agree with you that it's unproductive to engage with someone but I'd still prefer to be more respectful, even in blog comments. (I'm sure Shulman, and probably many of us, can find lots of extreme sounding sources about the evils of lashom hara, and that Ash can cite studies of the benefits of mutual respect, so there's always that, too). And in this case, I know others agree with him or suspect he's right and I felt it worthwhile to dispel that point if I could. But again, from what I can remember, you're the wrong person to criticize on this - I'm just the wrong person to take even this sort of comment passively.
You don’t necessarily have to be Charedi as you advocate You can be a Leaner/earner and really maximize your spare time whether in your car or at home with Limud HaTorah getting to minyan as much as possible and tune out and drop the mainstream media
The Gemara discussed the thin line between Shoggeg Karov Lmeizid and everyone had to work on not being satisfied with being a Beinoni as per a famous letter of CI
All this talk about Haredi vs. MO. Don't you realize the two worlds are slowly merging? The most serious MOs are realizing their devotion to secular society needs serious limits (a lot of them realized that a while ago, Rav Kahn's Torah umaddah speech from the 90s is an example), and many haredim are integrating into the broader religious world. Do you know how many haredi rabbanim Rabbi Aryeh Lebowitz talks to and brings his students to on a regular basis? Rav Doniel Asher Kleinman, the right hand man to Rav Shmuel Kamenetzsky recently spoke to the YU semicha students about hilchos shabbos. So I hope soon these terms will he obsolete. In Israel they are increasingly becoming such.
I know many "modox" people who are more torah-dik than many "yeshivish". I don't want the modox to become yeshivish though because there are tremendous issues in the yeshivish world that the MO lacks. But yes, we should be, and hopefully are, learning from each other.
Rav Lebowitz is a wonderful Talmid Chacham who very much like R HS and R Willig believes that Chiddushei Torah comes from all sources in the Mesorah regardless of their Hashkafa as does R Shalom Rosner
"And Halacha, let me be clear, is not a flexible set of practices. It's not suggestion. It’s law. It’s demanding, unsympathetic - and for Charedim, it's absolutely central to how we live."
Don't start with all that. When chareidim want to do X, they have no problem in sourcing suitable poskim and will declare 'the minhag ha"olam has always been to be meikel like Y". You are referring to a very narrow subset of halochoh (as is clear from your article), generally connected to sexual matters. And even then, modern rabbinical edicts against long glamorous sheitels and similar are frequently ignored. The observation 'He's dressed like a Polish nobleman from 150 years ago, she is dressed like a Parisian model' is as apt as ever.
When it comes to halochos such as zemanei tefillah, well your local minyan factory might demonstrate some 'flexibility" and 'sympathy'. As for money matters, let's not go there.
That just demonstrates how we all view halochoh as how we want it. Charedim are 'dedicated to halochoh, inflexible blah blah blah'. All that happens is when they WANT something, they will find poskim that support it, claim the "mingag haolam' s to be meikel like that posek and life carries on. That's why we have nursing home businesses sold with scrappy pieces of paper to their managers for pesach etc, and hetter iska being used for private non businesses purposes. I guarantee you if the modox had inventes selling nursing homes for flimsy bits of paper and hetter iskah's for non business and the chareidim didn’t need to, chareidim would be all over them.
And what about the halocho about teaching children a trade? Codified and completely ignored.
It's all smoke and mirrors once you take off the blinkers.
Could be, but I am discussing his false claim as to how seriously chareidim treat halochoh. Chassidim especially play and have always played fast and lose with halochoh.
This is also not why I raise my children Charedi. It's called that only because it's was a take on Ash's first post of that same title and I thought he missed an important point.
The reason I raise my kids Charedi truly is because I think their values mostly align with mine, similar to Ash's second post. I think torah and halacha are really important.
Hi, this is Sharona on my new account. Had some technical difficulties with my old one. I think when it comes to differences in difficulties between the sexes in frum life, it depends so much on the individual people and circumstances. Growing up I wished I was make because I thought I’d do better if my learning was valued. In my current circumstances, since females don’t have that much in the way of religious ritual that they must observe, and since I no longer believe, being a woman is very convenient.
I sounded like you a few years ago. I was ready to leave… even discussed it with my husband and everything. But I searched a bit more and I basically found most chareidi theories to be false and immoral all around. Not just with women. I radically changed my beliefs surrounding Torah and Judaism, to the point that I no longer associate with most chareidi principles. I am frum though, and proud, honestly. I am participating in a religion that inherently works against me because I know that what I discovered is true Judaism.
Writing all this so you don’t give up, and study with an acceptance of your own logic and creative thought. Changes everything. If I’m not helping ignore my comment
FWIW R D Twerski ZL ZYA was very skeptical as to the effectiveness of filters and was a strong advocate of just living your positively and getting up after you fall and to keep looking forward .
Yaakov's Deleted Post:
https://daastorah.substack.com/p/repost-yaakovs-deleted-blogpost-for
To clarify something that has come up in the comments and in emails, this was not a post about masturbation. It is a post about movies and internet. Ash thinks these are technically okay but our avoidance is wise beyond belief. I'm adding that is not just wise, there are issurim at play which is why the rabonim assured these things, not because of their prophetic vision as to where this can lead.
My views on masturbation are much more nuanced.
In short, halacha is clear that it is assur, and I can vouch that people like Reb Moshe and the gr'a to name two from a long list of kedoshim, were as healthy minded as can be despite their struggles with avoiding their inclinations.
That said, (1) it's considered a huge *maalah* to be strong in this area, while the *norm* is to fall and fall countless times.
(2) We are biologically disposed to feel like worthless garbage after doing so, and we must be taught that those feelings are neither holy nor helpful. They're demoralizing and inhibit growth in other areas, and we need to be made aware that is normal and that we're not the most awful people in the world. This is something many bachurim silently struggle with and it eats them away. They feel like phonies both while davening and while learning and with no one to talk to they think they are alone. Every yeshiva that doesn't have someone telling these things to their hormone-raging students is setting most of them up to fall horribly short of what they can be, if not way worse Rl.
And once again, this does not justify the action - it means that there is a growth process. And every win - because unlike finishing a mesechta, simply "not giving in" feels extremely inglorious ("I'm just not doing something I shouldn't do regardless") - is actually a huge milestone, and every loss means nothing more than I'm human and I'm not there yet. The time for teshuva will come, but feeling awful and inhibiting growth in general is maaseh yetzer, not teshuva.
Also, teshuva is about being a better person. Being able to go three more days than previously, or a week, means you're doing something right which means you actually are on the teshuva path. The only way to fall off this path is by not trying. (I highly recommend GYE to this end.)
There plenty more to say but that just about summarizes it.
This post was specifically about movies and internet, things prior that actively feed the desires and add extra nisyonos to said issue. That's what my footnote was for. And even with that I was uber-clear that one had to know where he is holding. That was the point of this post.
I hope that helped if there was any confusion.
Yeah. I heard one mashgiach from a chassidish yehivah from Antwerp claim, in a public shiur, that none of his bochurim have ever had this problem, because they all live in a complete atmosphere of kedusha and if one did, they would come and discuss it with him.
Just more chareidi self-delusion. As they say 90% of men masturbate and 10% lie.
About the first paragraph, oy! Hashem yerachem!
I don't see the need for the second paragraph at all.
https://maorkaplan.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/maor-kaplan-phd2_compressed.pdf
pg. 15 here. Too busy dunking on Minyan factories on your part to keep up with the latest research tsk tsk...
People do not answer surveys truthfully and accurately. Any survey. Kol shekein a survey connected with these sorts of matters.
What happened here? https://shalomvaemes.substack.com/
He deleted his account. I hope to repost it without an email when I can.
There was no Shalom and no Emes
https://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/56349
So we are on the same page:)
See SA EH simanim 21 & 23 it's all quite straightforward
Maybe סרט means an educational סרט, like, umm, about dinosaurs? And the dinosaurs aren't dressed tznius? I'm just trying to be דן לכף זכות.
Seriously speaking, Leka Darca Achrina has reasonable boundaries. No one says you need to buy everything online to avoid tznius issues or wear blurry contacts. Perhaps movies are widespread enough to say Leka Darka Achrina.
It sounds like a tremendous chiddush to say that one can willingly, on his own volition, go to a place that has woman not dressed modestly and chalk it up to ליכא דרכא אחרינא just because it is "widespread". I'm not even sure I know what that means.
It may be true that if one is not holding yet by not watching, he also has this heter of ליכא דרכא אחרינא until he graduates - I hear that sevara very shtark - but other than that it sound like quite a chiddush, and a biased one at that.
Idk the specific teshuva of Hagaon Reb Moshe but the subway/going outside is considered necessary to live in the world. I think your misunderstanding me.
https://www.rambish.org.il/journals/t/tzohar/vol042/tzohar04204.pdf
He seems right in the scenario discussed.
Thousands of Charedim travel by public transport and/or interact with immodestly dressed women. You might be mechalek between parnossoh and culture, but that is not codified in halochoh.
אל תשמח ישראל אל גיל כעמים is not formally codified in halocho.
Heh?? He's talking about watching movies not going on public transportation.
What's the difference in halochoh? Wbo says business is ok but culture is not? The difference is not codified in halochoh. Only chareidim make a difference but that whole argument is circular.
*if you can avoid it* is codified in halacha
test is saying that watching movies is an important of the Torah u'Madda ethos, as important as going to work (well, not for chareidim...) I tend to agree. Torah u'Madda, understood holistically, is not just about math, science, and medicine. It includes literature, music, sports, and entertainment. It's an all-encompassing embrace of secular culture, and is a tremendous mitzwah.
Haha
Says who ? If you drop a secular book in any discipline on the floor is there any Halachic significance or act required by Halacha in reaction?
They hold the culture is important, like business.
You see how you are putting your own preconceptions on this matter.
Very good
Idk what you're talking about. There's no heter to be "cultured" at the expense of issurim. It still can be that it's too hard to avoid movies and culture and the yetzer hara is strong, but a justification that doesn't make.
Even in this shailah he's asking about young girls not immodestly dressed women, but leaving that aside, he agrees that if it will lead to hirhur it is "categorically assur" as stated in shulman's post. Which movie doesn't have girls who aren't specifically pretty?
You can decide to let your kids watch but don't do it out of tzidkus. Do it because it's too hard not to, like part two of this post. (Btw fwiw, I think the article is excellent and is the only solution to struggling, growing yidden)
Have you ever wondered why hilchos tzniyus does NOT require the face to be covered? However pretty?
I'm not entirely sure of the relevance to our discussion but yes, because the onus is on the man to not stare. Tznius is about covering up ervah, parts that are usually covered. We care about the women living normal lives as well and humans interact with their faces so that's not something that gets covered up. Tznius is not only for men not to look, it's for the women to respect their bodies as well. And so on.
Tzniyus if far more complicated than that simplistic view. Arms and legs are not ervah. The other problem is that hardly any of hilchos tzniyus is codified in rishonim/acharonim.
A pretty face is far more erotic than an elbow. Why is there absolutely no restriction on women putting up making up, to make themselves even more attractive, and then walking in the street on shabbos/YT? Or hosting males for meals? As long as they cover their elbows, it's muttar l'chatchiloh (in most mainstream yeshivish communities, anyway). Odd, no?
I know you're not going to see it my way, but every part of this post just makes me happy that I am a בן חורין and no longer part of this insanity.
At the end of a long day, instead of being able to relax and enjoy the amazing media that's available to us nowadays, you have to spoil it by telling yourself "I am someone who is incapable of doing the real razon Hashem, and so, because I can't help myself and I'm incapable of controlling my yetzer harah I will indulge in this piece of tummah that is soiling my soul that I will have to answer for when I die."
I do not know a single person who came out of the Yeshiva system that hasn't been deeply hurt from these messages that we are taught to tell ourselves.
You can raise your kids secular with strong technology limits and safeguards - Even if you fail and your child ends up a dopamine addeled, brain rot ADHD monkey, at least they're not being raised with an ever-present toxic guilt that seeps into their pores and ruins their perspective on themselves.
I hate to say it, but I agree with Ben Torah over here. I'm not getting into the halachic sugya - personally, I feel if the movie's tznius standards are what one would generally see in the streets its fine (the whole issur of Leka Darka Achrina at least by the gemara is when women are revealing what they WOULDN'T normally reveal what is in the streets). That does rule out many PG13 and above movies, but that is fine, as kosher rules out many restaurants.
But Shulman's approach of doing something wrong knowingly doesn't sit well with me and doesn't seem psychologically healthy. In fact, if one does indeed need to do it for whatever psychological reason, shouldn't that in itself be Leka Darka Achrina and be muttar?
1. That's your interpretation that it's about "what's on the street". The simple understanding has to do with ervah, which doesn't change if non-Jews/not-frum people are lax.
2. My approach, which doesn't sit well with you, is necessary for anyone who is growing. How do you expect a baal teshuva to become a baal teshuva if he needs to give everything up at once. There are dozens of teshuvos in halacha that a baal teshuva does not need to give everything at once. If I'm not mistaken, Reb Moshe calls is being mechalel one shabbos to save a hundred (I'll try to locate), for example. Even though the baal teshuva knows it's wrong acc. to halacha to eat McDonalds. The approach I am taking is simply accepting the reality, which is perfectly healthy if you think about it (though I guess you have, but your response seems pretty off the cuff, not from experience).
3. To your final point, as I stated above: https://daastorah.substack.com/p/guest-post-why-shulman-is-raising/comment/124282425 - "it may be true that if one is not holding yet by not watching, he also has this heter of ליכא דרכא אחרינא until he graduates - I hear that sevara very shtark" - but that itself only comes with the limitations of "not holding there yet" which means, by definition, that one has to appreciate that this is a growth process. As I said, it's very personal and tailored, and no one should get bent of shape thinking that "o no I may never watch movies again" - you can. I guess if you do it wrong without sechel/guidance it can be detrimental but that goes with anything.
As far as halacha, I'm no posek, but I am pretty sure you can go shopping for fun. According to this logic you can never leave the house except for business,
If shopping for fun is fine, so should movies be.
I hear the point.
But (a) I personally hear a strong chiluk, and (b) even if I come around to your view, this is still very much the charedi position.
The chiluk I hear (very well) is that we are allowed to live life. That includes parks and shopping. Movies is a whole new genre, something a home can generally do without. Bringing that into the home and pretending it's necessary is a chiddush.
But if so it could be if that is the way you were brought up and it's really hard to live without that it taka is like going to the park.
Another chiluk is that they place attractive ladies in the movie on purpose and you're putting yourself in a particularly tight spot halachically, as opposed to outside where you aren't focusing in a scene being intentionally presented to you to attract you. I, personally, have a much easier time being careful outside than while watching on a screen for a lot of reasons. It may just be me. But I'm being honest.
Can you really go shopping for fun? From what I remember rabbis in Yeshiva strongly discourages (to put it lightly) going to malls.
They may discourage it, but I don't recall it being assur.
When I was a bochur a wouldn't go into malls. Your going to see more pretzus in a mall then on your average movie.
Exactly.
I'm only not going to agree because I believe there is a God and He expressed Himself in His Torah. If that is all fake, I somewhat agree to what you are saying.
I welcome a discussion about why I believe what I do privately if your interested, but yes, this post certainly assumes the Torah is true and that halacha matters.
I'll just add, I know hundreds of people who came out of yeshiva very healthy and happy and I'm sorry you didn't have the right people to cater to your concerns.
I'm not denying that lots of people leave the system healthy and happy - I am healthy and happy. But ask any of these healthy and happy people if they were hurt by the frum approach to shimras anynayim and shimiras habris - and the whole sinning, guilt, teshuvah, breaking you kabaalos and sinning again, etc. cycle. Not everyone is keen to acknowledge the trauma and the weight of this stuff that we were subjected to since we were young teenagers - but it's definitely there. (Some old reflections of mine on this topic: https://malimaalah.wixsite.com/offthederechthoughts/post/masturbation-an-otd-ben-torah-s-perspective)
Wanting and yearning to be better is not called being "hurt".
And if you want to discuss which system is healthier and happier with less overall "hurt", the depression in the cold, dark, godless world hurts many more people far more intensely. But these discussions and comparisons are futile because all that really matters is if it's true. If you're right, that depressing reality is true and blissful ignorance isn't a good alternative. If I'm right, the pain caused by not being your best is to be dealt with.
I also agree that in a lot of yeshivos they avoid discussing these issues and that is a huge problem which does hurt many people. I don't condone that one bit.
I'll add another point, the atheists love pretending that they feel awful after masturbation because of their idiotic spiritual teaching, when we all know that there is a chemical element, PCD, or the dopamine crash and prolactin release. Sure, the mind adds the fear and religious shame, but that's not teshuva or anything that comes from a good place; it's biology and yetzer hara. Anyone with healthy spiritual guidance is taught this and is guided to deal his feelings (very much along the lines of the second part of my article).
Take a look at GYE which Gdolim across the board endorse
What do you think the guard your eyes chevra are adding here? like, how does their existence address the issues being discussed.
There are different approaches to this issue and R D Twersky ZL HYD spoke very clearly on what he thought worked and didn’t
I agree, as I said. I don't like the way it's taught. "I also agree that in a lot of yeshivos they avoid discussing these issues and that is a huge problem which does hurt many people. I don't condone that one bit."
I am very involved with many mental health professionals, and no, atheism and denying the Torah isn't the only answer. Sorry.
Also if you read the post, in part one I wasn't explaining how to teach and discuss these things with young adults, I was explaining our culture.
Taylor's music is assur because it's kol isha.
Yes I'm a "fundamentalist". That's assumed in the post. We can have the conversation about why I am, and circle back but you don't want to have that conversation. You want to presume Judaism is a fakery and poke holes having already concluded that. I don't know why you need to go there - if Judaism is fake, there are hundreds of easy holes to poke, this is the least of them.
But in this specific conversation, Taylor's music is assur because that's what the poskim understand to be retzon Hashem.
It's unfortunate that we have terrible art in the Jewish world and people need Taylor to find that level of beauty.
But once again, presuming Judaism, and orthodox Judaism at that, there's nothing you you don't understand.
You are not a fundementalist. You just think you are. A fundementalist would not be blogging here. The rabbonim will not permit what you are doing. It's not parnossoh.
Well, this has been a fascinating (distinctly male and yeshivish) discussion. Personally, I respect (and follow in my own life) Rabbi Shulman’s shita.
It’s very convenient being a BT. My kids know that we(myself and my husband) like, for example, Simon and Garfunkel. . True, no problem with Kol isha, but one could have other problems with it. Sports is something my husband has always been into, so he is “kovea itim” for it, giving it a few minutes between his hours of Torah study.
My kids know that I try my best to live up to Hashem’s Word. They also know I’m human.
You can raise a very normal family as a Ben and Bas Torah especially as a BT and really shep a lot of Nachas from your children and aineklach with a lot of Tefilos work and being proper role models and having access to great rabbonim and a community that welcomes you and your family as part of the Torah world in terms of chavrusas and friends. You can also deal with your families of origin by seeing them on such days as Thanksgiving and making sure they are part of your simchas
The other use of our TV is when we have annual Super Bowl party for two very close friends who were roommates with my wife back when they all were singles on the Upper West Side and their husbands who are both RIETS Musmachim one of whom is a masmid atzum and the other who is a chaplain at several nursing homes and gives shiurim at neighborhood shuls We have all been attending each others simchas and RL smachos throughout the years Otger than that TV plays a marginal role in our lives We did binge on Shtisel which was very interesting and I watched Fauda which despite its violence and borderline pritzus clearly showed what kind of animals Hamas consists of
Sounds good and normal!!
We would walk through fire for the RIETS RY who have had the most Hashpaah on our lives and one day many years ago we tossed my extensive collection of late 1960s and early 1970s LPs from the greatest bands of that era because we felt they were inappropriate and inconsistent with raising a Torah committed family We still have aTV but we only watch Fox News and an occasional Yankees game
I'm surprised no one distinguished between those who are baalei aliya (on a positive growth track) and those who are not, the latter of whom can further be divided into those who can more or less coast and those who struggle. Someone who is shayach to being a ben aliya generally ought to follow all Torah ideals including halacha with "all his heart, soul and strength," which is the general approach of Shulman. There are many, almost certainly most, in yeshiva who will not live their best Torah life on that path. They need a positive path towards their best life and any baal sechel today should see that gains can be made in important areas when leniencies are found in others. You have to play to each individual's strengths and beware of the tragic harm that is unjustified even, at times, by halacha, provided there is proper horaa) of raising a child by only (or predominantly) playing to his weaknesses, even if you say "it's ok, you're still working on it." Just coasting is such a waste. And those who are struggling need even more personalized guidance to being their best selves. It recognizes that Shulman's approach is distantly aspirational and their only path to shleimus requires what I heard an important Rav call triage. Meaning, you have to have a process of determining priorities that depends on sechel and possible outcomes. And the most important priority is always enough long term metal health and confidence to lead a successful life of Torah. If the kid is going to wind up a mess with no shaychus to shleimus at all, the whole conversation of halacha is irrelevant. This is one meaning of אם אין דרך ארץ אין תורה.
I should add that not only did everyone struggle at times, but even bnei aliya sometimes (often?) find themselves in circumstances not addressed by halacha and that do not lend themselves to easy shaalos aside from which so many people do not have realistic access to a Rav when needed. One example is ongoing illness, when hours and hours of lying around over weeks and months can drive you nuts. Is watching something (there is a definite distinction in there between trash and humanly interesting that obviously applies) occasionally in that context ok? What about the illness of a family member that just causes ongoing stress that makes learning difficult and increases the need to enter another world for a while? Or general challenges dealing with stress? I don't think these sort of questions fit neatly into halachic categories (I certainly don't accept Ash's leka darka achrina chidush, in part because it's the wrong extension of that source. Meaning, that source is dealing with a case in which there is no benefit to walking past the women at all. Leka darka achrina is the wrong halachic construct outside of that context). The triage model is often more appropriate here, even especially for bnei aliya in extreme circumstances. The most basic test it always has to pass, however, is kol maasecha leshem shamayim.
An absolutist view of halacha is, in my view, clearly the Torah's intent, but (a) that means the whole Torah - not just the parts that made it into the shulchan aruch and got named "halacha" with proper balancing of all conversations - and (b) applying it across the board in a dor that can't handle it lacks sechel, even with Shulman's approach. I will say that when it comes to teshuva, especially in Tishrei, he's 100% right. Even though you know change is not realistic in certain areas, your teshuva is 100% real if you can acknowledge that what you are doing is against the Torah but that despite your efforts you find that you simply can't achieve what's called for. Your theoretical intent not to repeat those behaviors if possible is absolutely enough to qualify as full teshuva and you can celebrate full forgiveness and kappara and a brand new slate with everyone else.
Another point you're bringing up that I mentioned briefly at the end but didn't get into is that we can't say everything is assur and I'm going to do it anyways. We also have to not think about certain things. We don't daven like they used to, we don't learn like they used to, we are constantly disregarding halachos is so many areas, and to focus on it all consciously and just say "I'm not holding there yet" isn't even an option. But then again, we can't let everything slide either. This is Reb Dessler's famous nekudas habechirah point.
For example, an actual baal teshuva shouldn't even think about movies being a problem. He first needs to get Shabbos and kashrus in order, or something like that. For his current struggles, he needs to take this triage approach. After those become routine, he focuses on the next, and he grows and grows.
For most of us, movies and internet are a struggle within our nekudas habechirah. We live with the struggle of shemiras einayim like never before and it's not something new. Unless his life is spiraling out of control in other areas, this is a classic thing to be working on.
Yeshivaland doesn't view halochoh like you suggest. A concept like 'a chumrah in hilchos niddoh is a kulloh in hilchos sholom bayis' is alien to Yeshivaland. You have to understand, they spend all day, in a bubble chamber, day after day, studying personless texts and mixing with people that think exactly like them and believe exactly like them. They don't understand the people side of torah, after all the people side is missing from their texts. They don't look at shu'T in their historical perspective. For some unnown reason they give complete featality to a very machmir rabbi from Radin from 150 years ago, and seem to ignore almost every other source of halochoh.
There is a reason why, thankfully, the general sum output of Kollelland is ignored by rabbonim that actually run kehillos and deal with human beings outside the echo chamber, who live real lives.
Oh.
Very well put, thanks. This is really why part one (halacha) comes before part two (slow growth). If part one is meaningless, you have no "heter" to use part two indiscriminately.
I always enjoy how you put things, you're very insightful.
(flashback https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/whats-it-got-to-do-with-us/comment/44204517 - I still remember loving this insight of yours as one example :)
There is a point I think I should add about your citation of the Gemara in Nidah 13b that I sense you would value. These are midrashic sources and based on what I’ve learned, I’m not comfortable with publicizing them in their apparent simple meaning. I have no problem with individuals interpreting them that way in their own learning, although if given the opportunity I would always warn them about it. That is just not how I learned to interpret midrashim, especially as a student of Maharal but even without that approach. The point of a Midrash is always the very specific point being made - not just to emphasize the severity of something, for example. At first glance, it seems as you apply it - it’s so bad that one is not brought into the area separated for God. Wow, that sounds bad. But what in the world does מחיצתו של הקב”ה mean? Does everyone else get brought in there? Why is that the consequence and not a thousand and one others? Are there 74 other consequences that are worse? Pick some other awful sounding consequence for something else. Why are they not flipped? If you don’t have a proposed understanding of the Midrash, my feeling is you should not use it publicly to make it a point. Just making people fear something indiscriminately to my knowledge is exactly not what the Midrash is there for. If we know what it’s teaching us specifically, we can do something with it, limit it to its intent and perhaps even be empowered by it instead of abashed. Without knowing exactly what this Midrash means, there is a danger that it will prove to be little more than fear mongering. I understand your basic point was really just to support how seriously you take these halachos. That’s reasonable. But then you emphasized how bad it sounded and this topic in particular, as you acknowledge in your first comment, is especially fraught and deserves more care than that.
Charedim don't learn midrash like gemoroh. Learning midrash like gemorroh, focusing on each and every word and phrase is called 'parshanut' and is very Tziyoni/Modox.
Charedim take a midrash, pull out it's general theme, and give fiery mussar based on that theme.
I don't know what you're talking about. I'm in the charedi community and this is how the traditional mefarshim and baalei machshava explain midrashim and is how my Rabbeim and rashei yeshiva taught. Certainly Rav Moshe Shapiro and Rav Hutner taught this way and ybl"c Rav Ahron Lopiansky. You're probably talking about standard yeshiva shmuzim, which are part of the discussion about yeshiva education but are generally given to bochurim who are not yet holding by learning it seriously. And yes, I know, parts of the charedi community of adults are like what you describe but only parts of it. The tzioni/modox you refer to do not typically learn midrash like the yeshiva mesorah I am describing.
And how widespread are Reb Moshe Shapiro and Rav Hutner's teachings in most chareidi yeshivos? I didn't say no chareidim ever learn parshanut did I? Those two are the exceptions that prove the rule.
I wouldn't bother with test. He's just a bitter old man who shouts at the clouds. We know him well from Irrationalist Modoxism.
I understand where you're coming from but I still find this comment unnecessarily unkind. I know it's the blogosphere and it's better (far better, even) than much of what's here, so I don't mean to be critical. I may find I agree with you that it's unproductive to engage with someone but I'd still prefer to be more respectful, even in blog comments. (I'm sure Shulman, and probably many of us, can find lots of extreme sounding sources about the evils of lashom hara, and that Ash can cite studies of the benefits of mutual respect, so there's always that, too). And in this case, I know others agree with him or suspect he's right and I felt it worthwhile to dispel that point if I could. But again, from what I can remember, you're the wrong person to criticize on this - I'm just the wrong person to take even this sort of comment passively.
Thank you!
You don’t necessarily have to be Charedi as you advocate You can be a Leaner/earner and really maximize your spare time whether in your car or at home with Limud HaTorah getting to minyan as much as possible and tune out and drop the mainstream media
True! I was just coasting off Ash's original post. The main point was to be clear about halacha and how to navigate it.
The Gemara discussed the thin line between Shoggeg Karov Lmeizid and everyone had to work on not being satisfied with being a Beinoni as per a famous letter of CI
Unbelievable.
Thanks! (Assuming that's not sarcastic)
https://www.rambish.org.il/journals/t/tzohar/vol042/tzohar04204.pdf
All this talk about Haredi vs. MO. Don't you realize the two worlds are slowly merging? The most serious MOs are realizing their devotion to secular society needs serious limits (a lot of them realized that a while ago, Rav Kahn's Torah umaddah speech from the 90s is an example), and many haredim are integrating into the broader religious world. Do you know how many haredi rabbanim Rabbi Aryeh Lebowitz talks to and brings his students to on a regular basis? Rav Doniel Asher Kleinman, the right hand man to Rav Shmuel Kamenetzsky recently spoke to the YU semicha students about hilchos shabbos. So I hope soon these terms will he obsolete. In Israel they are increasingly becoming such.
I hope so!
I know many "modox" people who are more torah-dik than many "yeshivish". I don't want the modox to become yeshivish though because there are tremendous issues in the yeshivish world that the MO lacks. But yes, we should be, and hopefully are, learning from each other.
Rav Lebowitz is a wonderful Talmid Chacham who very much like R HS and R Willig believes that Chiddushei Torah comes from all sources in the Mesorah regardless of their Hashkafa as does R Shalom Rosner
Great post! Important and relevant. I wish I could like twice!
Don't forget Orach Chaim 560:3. Almost all songs and music are assur, and not just during the three weeks or sefirah.
That's not the Rema's opinion, only Reb Moshe. And even listening b'regilus has a solid heter.
"And Halacha, let me be clear, is not a flexible set of practices. It's not suggestion. It’s law. It’s demanding, unsympathetic - and for Charedim, it's absolutely central to how we live."
Don't start with all that. When chareidim want to do X, they have no problem in sourcing suitable poskim and will declare 'the minhag ha"olam has always been to be meikel like Y". You are referring to a very narrow subset of halochoh (as is clear from your article), generally connected to sexual matters. And even then, modern rabbinical edicts against long glamorous sheitels and similar are frequently ignored. The observation 'He's dressed like a Polish nobleman from 150 years ago, she is dressed like a Parisian model' is as apt as ever.
When it comes to halochos such as zemanei tefillah, well your local minyan factory might demonstrate some 'flexibility" and 'sympathy'. As for money matters, let's not go there.
Ahh, the minyan factories. How I've missed them.
That just demonstrates how we all view halochoh as how we want it. Charedim are 'dedicated to halochoh, inflexible blah blah blah'. All that happens is when they WANT something, they will find poskim that support it, claim the "mingag haolam' s to be meikel like that posek and life carries on. That's why we have nursing home businesses sold with scrappy pieces of paper to their managers for pesach etc, and hetter iska being used for private non businesses purposes. I guarantee you if the modox had inventes selling nursing homes for flimsy bits of paper and hetter iskah's for non business and the chareidim didn’t need to, chareidim would be all over them.
And what about the halocho about teaching children a trade? Codified and completely ignored.
It's all smoke and mirrors once you take off the blinkers.
Could be, but I am discussing his false claim as to how seriously chareidim treat halochoh. Chassidim especially play and have always played fast and lose with halochoh.
Based on this post… would you not raise your girls chareidi? Because very little of this, ( none?) apply to women.
Yeah sorry none of this applies to women.
This is also not why I raise my children Charedi. It's called that only because it's was a take on Ash's first post of that same title and I thought he missed an important point.
The reason I raise my kids Charedi truly is because I think their values mostly align with mine, similar to Ash's second post. I think torah and halacha are really important.
Sorry!
O my! That sounds intense!
Generally I think you're wrong. I think frum ladies have it much harder. But that includes being married to a frum man...
Can you PM or email me? No pressure at all
Hi, this is Sharona on my new account. Had some technical difficulties with my old one. I think when it comes to differences in difficulties between the sexes in frum life, it depends so much on the individual people and circumstances. Growing up I wished I was make because I thought I’d do better if my learning was valued. In my current circumstances, since females don’t have that much in the way of religious ritual that they must observe, and since I no longer believe, being a woman is very convenient.
I sounded like you a few years ago. I was ready to leave… even discussed it with my husband and everything. But I searched a bit more and I basically found most chareidi theories to be false and immoral all around. Not just with women. I radically changed my beliefs surrounding Torah and Judaism, to the point that I no longer associate with most chareidi principles. I am frum though, and proud, honestly. I am participating in a religion that inherently works against me because I know that what I discovered is true Judaism.
Writing all this so you don’t give up, and study with an acceptance of your own logic and creative thought. Changes everything. If I’m not helping ignore my comment
Lol I'm not here to change your mind or even discuss that!
I'll pm you, tx
FWIW R D Twerski ZL ZYA was very skeptical as to the effectiveness of filters and was a strong advocate of just living your positively and getting up after you fall and to keep looking forward .
Re dealing with Nisyonos take a look at a great website called Guard Your Eyes that was greatly influenced and supported by R D A Twerski ZL ZYA