Is the Torah Divine?

The real difference between Ultra-Orthodox and Modern Orthodox

Warning: Some generalizations , dichotomies and stereotypes ahead. If you are the type of person who can’t read a generalization and not realize it does not apply to everybody, or cannot realize that some dichotomies are more like spectrums and are there to bring out a point, this post is not for you. Also, this post is missing why Modern Orthodox tend to be more meikel, though I think it’s inferrable from the post. Finally, this draft is a bit of a mess and out of order, but I decided to publish it and say my point even in a disorganized fashion rather than refine it, as it has been sitting around in various states and I felt that I would not let perfect be the enemy of the good. Also, I do not delve into the Torah sources who is actually correct - this post is about attitudes NOT what the Torah itself says.

Many eons ago, an article attempting to define Modern Orthodoxy was posted on Irrational Modoxism. The article essentially asserted that the difference between the Orthodoxies is a difference in degree, not kind. Or simply put, Modern Orthodoxy is simply an excuse to be less frum. (The article was also clearly an elaborate troll, which I confirmed by seeing the first draft.) Of course, Modern Orthodox thinkers dispute this, but they all have different ideas what precisely is Modern Orthodoxy. I won’t enter into their definitions here, but I do want to add a crucial point which I do not believe anyone has pointed out in these discussions.

In my opinion, the main disagreement between the Orthodoxies is whether the Torah is Divine. Let me be clear - both Orthodoxies believe the Torah is from Hashem, word for word, with belief in the 13 ikkarim (with some minor exceptions on the left wing of Modern Orthodoxy). There is no disagreement that the Torah is from the Divine. The disagreement is whether the Torah ITSELF is a divinity or like a God.

The common Litvish yeshivish view is this: The Torah is essentially a God. It is the most miraculous, divine thing ever. It is perfect. Learning it magically fixes things, protects things, and perform miracles. It is the most important mitzvah, nay, the most important thing ever. Hashem looked into the Torah and created the world. That means the world subjugates itself to the Torah. The Torah is reality, determines reality, shapes reality. It is life itself. The main thing Hashem wants us to do all day is learn the Torah and therefore know him. In fact, in some litvishe places Hashem is barely mentioned, with the Torah getting all the mention.¹

In contrast, the Modern Orthodox view is this: The Torah is the world's best self-help book, a guide to life, because it was written by God. (Some view it primarily as a world-help book, to improve the world). That means we should follow the Torah and keep its laws because who knows better than Hashem? But the point of learning is to follow it, not the learning itself! In fact, learning it without going to work or to the fields so you can follow the laws is nonsensical. Its like reading the manual without operating the machine! The people who should learn the whole day are the rabbis, so they can teach the self-help (or world-help) book. But if everyone does it, it's ridiculous.

This plays out in many different ways.

For example, many (most?) Yeshivish people are shocked by the idea that chazal could be wrong in science. Why? Because these were the greatest geniuses figuring out what is essentially God. In fact, they created (or passed on to us depending how you view drashos) the authorized pshat to the Torah, which means that they are Godlike themselves. Saying that a gemara is scientifically wrong seems almost kefira to them, despite many rishonim holding such approaches as acceptable. This is because one is essentially saying the Torah is wrong, which seems like saying God is wrong. Thus, even though nearly all yeshivish people concede that it's certainly possible chazal made mistakes, they are very bothered by it at first. The following shiur By R Mordechai Hershfeld, a rov in Lakewood, on the subject of techeiles is an extreme example of a common sentiment: (Source)

In contrast, someone Modern Orthodox will have a hard time even understanding the yeshivish hesitation in the first place. Chazal were human beings - holy ones to be sure - but of a certain time and era. There’s no way they would magically know science before their time. To think otherwise would be absurd. That’s because they view chazal as the authorized interpreters of the text. The would say that Hashem gave us a manual which with to live our lives, but Hashem also knew times could change and circumstances could change, so he said to follow the best interpreters of each time. A more sophisticated Modern Orthodox person would say that Chazal were canonized and since we are in galus we cannot overrule their interpretations, but there soon may be a Sanhedrin with which we can fix apparent scientific errors. (Or even woman’s rights.) Rabbi Maroof does a good job of explaining this viewpoint.

Many of the statements about women in the Talmud and Midrash, and some of the halakhot applicable to women, reflect the Rabbis’ own beliefs about women, beliefs that they mistakenly thought were “scientific facts.” Today we realize that many of these ideas were totally incorrect. But just because we know more than the Rabbis did about women doesn’t automatically mean that we can change the rules of Jewish law on our own.

On the contrary, we must continue to observe the Halakha as it was formulated by our Rabbis thousands of years ago. That is the way the system of Torah that Hashem gave us is supposed to work - its laws remain fixed and can only be changed by an official Rabbinic Supreme Court called a Sanhedrin. 

Of course, we eagerly await the arrival of Mashiach and the establishment of a new Sanhedrin that will review and update any laws that are incompatible with current scientific knowledge, including knowledge about the equality of the sexes. In the meantime, though, within the limits of the halakha as it exists now, we must live out our Judaism in light of our awareness that there is no intellectual or spiritual difference between women and men.

There are many ways this plays out. A yeshiva guy will think kollel is the main thing Hashem wants from us, while a Modern Orthodox guy will think he’s missing the boat, as it is like reading the manual but never operating the car. (If he’s really intensely Modox he'll write hundreds of articles about chareidim not going to work or the army).

Another example is found in The Science in Torah, by R Yehuda Levi, a book specifically written to go against Slifkin’s books (pg 80):

”The [scientific] laws… are necessary for the fulfillment of the Torah’s commandments!… It is clear then that the laws of nature are a condition to making Torah’s commandments executable. If God wishes us to fulfill His commandments, He must provide us with reliable laws of nature… [Hashem] established laws to govern heaven and earth only for the sake of [his] covenant, the Torah.”

Basically, Hashem wanted the Torah to be kept, so he created the earth so it would be.

In contrast, a Modern Orthodox person would find that idea laughable. Hashem created the world, and in order to help us be our best, or to help the world achieve its perfection, he gave us the Torah. The Torah is the means to an end, not the end itself. (Chasidus agrees with this in a sense as well). Thus, Hashem created the world with a goal in mind, or a human with a goal in mind for him, and then gave the Torah to help us out. Midrashim that imply otherwise are reinterpreted in a narrow sense.

This plays out as well in whether certain mitzvos were geared for a certain time. For example, is yibbum or onus umafata a compromise due to the morality and marriage reality of their time, or the the Divine ideal? How about the apparently subservient view of a women? A yeshivish person will generally believe that the marriage shown in the Torah is the way its supposed to be, with our chato’im and influence from the goyim causing us to be blinded by things like romantic love and equal rights. In contrast, a Modern Orthodox person will think society progressed and the mitzvos and vision of marriage in the Torah reflect the cultural contexts of the time, and the Torah was given precisely to guide us to such a vision (i.e., the Torah succeeded). The same with slavery: Slavery was an essential component of ancient economies and the Torah compromised and put limits on it, since it was economically inevitable. The general lack of slavery today is looked at as a triumph of the Torah's underlying morality. In contrast, most yeshivish people think there's nothing wrong with slavery, and when moshiach comes, we are all going to have slaves again so we can learn the whole day. (Ask a yeshivish person and a Modern Orthodox person whether there will be slaves when moshaich comes. My prediction is you will generally find this difference).

This is furthermore shown in names and ideals like Torah Umadda. The Satmar Rov once quipped that “Torah Vedaas is a good yeshiva with a bad name”, meaning Torah doesn't need anything else. Torah Umadda is mocked in the same veinas well. In contrast, Rav Shagar writes “The word and, so typical of the national religious movement - yeshiva and military service, yeshiva and academia, yeshiva and secular studies - does not represent an artificial synthesis, and certainly not, as some have alleged, an idolatry by association. It [instead] should be interpreted… as the keystone that supports the entire edifice and imbues it with meaning. (Rav Shagar, Faith Shattered and Restored. Page Xiii)”. In other words, the point of the Torah is to grant the other disciplines meaning.
A yeshivish person sees and an “and” to anything from the Torah implies the Torah isn’t perfect. As the footnote on the Rav Shagar book helpfully states “Avoda Zara beshituf (idolatry in association) is applied to religious zionism” by the ultra-Orthodox who see it as “obligated to both Torah and secular values like nationalism”. The Torah is the ultimate guide and purpose to life, and additional studies and values are unnecessary, or even kefiradig. In contrast, Modern Orthodoxy views the Torah as a guide to life, with which one takes the Torah’s rules and values (whatever that means) and applies it to other fields, which is the primary goal of the Torah. Thus, it is “the keystone that imbues it with meaning”.

Additionally, this helps explain why Chareidim are so hesitant to accept certain apologetics that more modern orthodox people take for granted. For example, the idea that the first chapters of bereishis are allegorical, countermyth, or mythohistory. For a chareidi, you are essentially saying the Torah, given for all generations, has blatant lies. Despite the fact that in the generation the Torah was given, those receiving it would have recognized the genre correctly, since nowadays we do not, and the Mesorah did not, one is essentially saying the Torah is lying (cha’v). This is impossible. But for someone Modern orthodox, the Torah was a self-help book. It was given to the first generation to help them out. Hashem could plausibly use different genres or even mistakes. The Torah was not meant to be a science book. Therefore, its plausible to him that Hashem would give it in the absolute best way to make sure its accepted, even if its not all literally true, because it is the mitzvos, message and morality, not the factuality of the stories, that really matter. He would also be OK with articles like “The Deliberately Flawed Divine Torah” that someone chareidi would view as hardcore kefira. (Some extreme LW modern orthodox may even stretch this to whether if Moshe wrote the Torah matters as well.)

Additionally, someone who views the Torah as the absolute Truth will reinterpret science to match what the Torah says, no matter how implausibly. This is obvious because Hashem looked into the Torah and created the world. Thus the Torah is the source of reliablity while everything else is second fiddle. In contrast, someone Modern orthodox will look at the Torah as being meant to be interpreted in line with science - both science and Torah are ways to God, neither more important than the other as they have different goals. Thus, the Torah was always meant to be interpreted alongside the science of the generations, and both sources of truth need to be in consonance with each other.

This also helps explain why Modern Orthodox value secular knowledge as a thing - because the Torah was never given to tell us everything. Hashem wants us to study the world as well. In contrast, Yeshivish people generally see no intrinsic value to secular studies - its just worth getting a job.

I once had a rebbe who bemoaned that since Albert Einstein was not frum we would never get a Chiddushei Reb Albert. A Modern Orthodox person would not understand this - the scientific advancement that Albert Einstein taught was unparalleled and vital. He may wish Albert kept the mitzvos, but may still think R’ Albert accomplished his tafkid by advancing science, while having another acharon on the shelf wouldn’t be as amazing.

And of course, this pshat - that chareidim worship the Torah - certainly explains Daas Torah - the extraworldly knowledge that those who learn possess. Someone who spent their whole life studying divinity would certainly have extraordinary knowledge. The Chazon Ish would certainly know how to do a cranial surgery without knowing science just from the Torah alone. A modern Orthodox person though would just think that daas torah means the Rabbi knows Torah. He doesn't know other things and he has to learn them. On the contrary, if a rabbi only knows Torah that means his knowledge is woefully lacking.

This may also explain why Modern orthodox people are ok with looking at the Avos and other characters in Tanakh through a human lens as humans while more yeshivish people get very uncomfortable with it.

In conclusion, both Yeshivish people and Modern Orthodox people believe the Torah is from Hashem, but yeshivish people also “worship” (not literally, in the other sense) the Torah, while a modern Orthodox person may view the litvish view as a form of avoda zara². In contrast, a yeshivish person may put it that the Modern orthodox do not view the Torah as Kadosh, and just another subject and helpful “For Dummies” book, and thus they treat it with little respect.

1. As an aside, my fun way of testing if a Chabad sentence is kefira or not, I substitute the word Torah for Rebbe. If it wouldn’t make me nervous anymore, I am fine with it. But if it still would, then I consider it questionable.

2. Unfortunately, though, not worshipping the Torah is often replaced by worship of money, not Hashem.