I personally don't think the Lubavitch position is prima facie ridiculous (I had a discussion a while back with a kofer on RJ. He said, aren't miracles ridiculous-do you believe Jesus resurrected? I said if I don't believe that, it's not because I think resurrection is prima facie ridiculous).
But the more important thing is, thanks to Ami magazine, Lubavitch is slowly but surely becoming normalized!
There are thousands of Chabadniks who believe he is alive in body and the funeral was a nisayon like the Satan showing Moshe Rabeinu's death. They are convinced he is hidden somewhere awaiting to be revealed.
Fine, but I don't see that in the essay you linked. Maybe you happen to know who the author is and know that he believes that, and that's what he means. But just from the words of the essay, he could be talking about the Rebbe's spirit (which obviously he believes is more present than any other deceased person's spirit).
I'm have no problem with it, I don't see much of a difference between them and any other chassidus. Somebody told me Satmar also views them as just another chassidus. I don't really care if they have this or that crazy belief. Not that I agree with them!
Ok, maybe it's not so terrible. But then I don't see anything wrong with saying the Rebbe is alive, if they don't mean it in the physical sense, rather "צדיקים במיתתם קרויים חיים", which is the real חיים
Personally my main issue with chabad is because they believe the Rebbe is god (He said so himself). And not so much the Moshiach issue, but rather WHY they think he's moshiach-because he's infallible and there's nothing he can be other than Moshiach.
I have the same problem with yeshivish people! It's not their approach in Torah and science, it's that they think Chazal are infallible, and therefore there is nothing they can be other than correct, no matter how glaringly obvious it is they made a mistake.
Chazal were gedolim a d tzadikim and carriers of the mesorah, but they were not infallible, and where it is clear in metzius that they were wrong we should accept it and move on.
Can I clarify two things: that the yeshivish position is not that they were infallible, but that to us they were practically infallible. We use the Reb moshe moshol and how was hardly fallible and how the Gr'a was even greater etc... And two, no single person was infallible, many made many mistakes, they were human and showed it all the time. but that the system of Amoraim, what was placed carefully into our Shas is infallible.
Wonder why noone thought of that during times of Chazal.
i.e. guy bows down to avodah zara saying "you are my god", goes to beis din to get killed. HIs excuse "it was a litvish misunderstanding". Beis din-"witnesses, now apologize for not having ahavas yisroel"
So the very next paragraph there (the one beginning ועל דרך) shows examples of this kind of talk (that a nivra can be identified by the name of the Borei without any claim that they're in fact identical) from the Zohar (מאן פני האדון דא רשב"י), the Tanya (the latter in turn citing Ramban's commentary to Bereishis 18:3, והנה קראם בשם רבם באל"ף דל"ת) and Shema (Moshe saying ונתתי מטר... ונתתי עשב). To which also might be added Yerushalmi Bikkurim 3:3 (וה' בהיכל קדשו, הא רבי יצחק בר לעזר בכנישתא מדרתא דקיסרין). You got a problem with any of those sources too?
Ok let's try this. Imagine we are at har sinai some 3335 years ago, and there is this thing going on called the golden calf. I am very drawn to worshipping this thing, and it is your job to convince me out of it. Let's see if you convince me. I'll start the conversation.
Me-"Did you meet our new Rebbe? Moshe was niftar, and Aharon declared that this golden calf is the new rebbe.
You- "What do you see in the golden calf that excites you?"
Me- He is our God, who took us out of Egypt.
You- Is that what you just said? You realize that's Avoda zoro?
Me- (laughs pitifully) Avoda zara hahah you've been spending too much time around litvaks. Did you ever see the zohar that says rashbi is god? Of course we don't mean it literal. He's god but in the sense that he's not really god, only sometimes, possibly, we call him god because hes god but he isnt really god, hes like a half god, like god just without avodah zara, but definitely still god. We can daven to him because hes part of god, but youre also part of god, and avoda zoro is something else, really, dont you see the difference? Anyhow, where's your ahavas yisroel? Dont you see the achdus klal yisroel has with this calf? Even aharon supports it! And sinas chinam destroyed the bais hamikdash, all because of guys like you. And you think that's avoda zara hahahahaha you're such an ignorant foolish closed minded litvishe hater. Now go learn some more gemara while I farbreng with the egel- the nasi hador"
I personally don't think the Lubavitch position is prima facie ridiculous (I had a discussion a while back with a kofer on RJ. He said, aren't miracles ridiculous-do you believe Jesus resurrected? I said if I don't believe that, it's not because I think resurrection is prima facie ridiculous).
But the more important thing is, thanks to Ami magazine, Lubavitch is slowly but surely becoming normalized!
Can't give Ami all the credit, it's far more complicated than that.
(The fact that almost no Rov would critcize them in public has a lot to do with it. Rav Shach was niftar over 20 years ago.)
As a side note, I firmly believe that if Jesus were around today he would be considered 100% mainstream.
That the Rebbe is alive you don't find ridiculous!? (That he's moshiach I don't. But him being alive despite being buried is ridiculous.)
Alive in spirit, not ridiculous. In body, yes, because he was buried and AFAIK, nobody is claiming he resurrected.
There are thousands of Chabadniks who believe he is alive in body and the funeral was a nisayon like the Satan showing Moshe Rabeinu's death. They are convinced he is hidden somewhere awaiting to be revealed.
Fine, but I don't see that in the essay you linked. Maybe you happen to know who the author is and know that he believes that, and that's what he means. But just from the words of the essay, he could be talking about the Rebbe's spirit (which obviously he believes is more present than any other deceased person's spirit).
I'll try to find such a post (they're more common in hebrew).
Anyways, I'm sure you're ok with Chabad being normalized then as there's nothing wrong with what they are saying...
I'm have no problem with it, I don't see much of a difference between them and any other chassidus. Somebody told me Satmar also views them as just another chassidus. I don't really care if they have this or that crazy belief. Not that I agree with them!
Nothing personal, but that's a pretty bad tzushtel.
I think its great!
Ok, maybe it's not so terrible. But then I don't see anything wrong with saying the Rebbe is alive, if they don't mean it in the physical sense, rather "צדיקים במיתתם קרויים חיים", which is the real חיים
Personally my main issue with chabad is because they believe the Rebbe is god (He said so himself). And not so much the Moshiach issue, but rather WHY they think he's moshiach-because he's infallible and there's nothing he can be other than Moshiach.
I have the same problem with yeshivish people! It's not their approach in Torah and science, it's that they think Chazal are infallible, and therefore there is nothing they can be other than correct, no matter how glaringly obvious it is they made a mistake.
Chazal were gedolim a d tzadikim and carriers of the mesorah, but they were not infallible, and where it is clear in metzius that they were wrong we should accept it and move on.
Can I clarify two things: that the yeshivish position is not that they were infallible, but that to us they were practically infallible. We use the Reb moshe moshol and how was hardly fallible and how the Gr'a was even greater etc... And two, no single person was infallible, many made many mistakes, they were human and showed it all the time. but that the system of Amoraim, what was placed carefully into our Shas is infallible.
Reb Moshe moshol? Is that the story with the Aguna or something else?
No just that he was so great
It's a litvish misunderstanding of when the Rebbe said he is a shtick elokus.
Wonder why noone thought of that during times of Chazal.
i.e. guy bows down to avodah zara saying "you are my god", goes to beis din to get killed. HIs excuse "it was a litvish misunderstanding". Beis din-"witnesses, now apologize for not having ahavas yisroel"
I have lots of chabad friends. Not a single one believes the Rebbe is God. Infallible, yes. But God, no.
See here, top right
https://identifyingchabad.org/utzmus%20sicha%20511.jpg
It's a very informative website in general
https://identifyingchabad.org/
So the very next paragraph there (the one beginning ועל דרך) shows examples of this kind of talk (that a nivra can be identified by the name of the Borei without any claim that they're in fact identical) from the Zohar (מאן פני האדון דא רשב"י), the Tanya (the latter in turn citing Ramban's commentary to Bereishis 18:3, והנה קראם בשם רבם באל"ף דל"ת) and Shema (Moshe saying ונתתי מטר... ונתתי עשב). To which also might be added Yerushalmi Bikkurim 3:3 (וה' בהיכל קדשו, הא רבי יצחק בר לעזר בכנישתא מדרתא דקיסרין). You got a problem with any of those sources too?
Ok let's try this. Imagine we are at har sinai some 3335 years ago, and there is this thing going on called the golden calf. I am very drawn to worshipping this thing, and it is your job to convince me out of it. Let's see if you convince me. I'll start the conversation.
Me-"Did you meet our new Rebbe? Moshe was niftar, and Aharon declared that this golden calf is the new rebbe.
You- "What do you see in the golden calf that excites you?"
Me- He is our God, who took us out of Egypt.
You- Is that what you just said? You realize that's Avoda zoro?
Me- (laughs pitifully) Avoda zara hahah you've been spending too much time around litvaks. Did you ever see the zohar that says rashbi is god? Of course we don't mean it literal. He's god but in the sense that he's not really god, only sometimes, possibly, we call him god because hes god but he isnt really god, hes like a half god, like god just without avodah zara, but definitely still god. We can daven to him because hes part of god, but youre also part of god, and avoda zoro is something else, really, dont you see the difference? Anyhow, where's your ahavas yisroel? Dont you see the achdus klal yisroel has with this calf? Even aharon supports it! And sinas chinam destroyed the bais hamikdash, all because of guys like you. And you think that's avoda zara hahahahaha you're such an ignorant foolish closed minded litvishe hater. Now go learn some more gemara while I farbreng with the egel- the nasi hador"
Ok, now it's your turn