That is not true. All day learning was geared for an elite fee that chose that. To extrapolate that to the modern day rule is wrong and killing bochrim.
And how important is it to also not completely discredit the teachers while teaching nuance at home?
For example My kid is taught to say “bh everything is fine”. And I want to teach them that it’s okay for things to not be fine. We can accept our emotions as being not okay and we can communicate them to our friends in an honest way. So I teach them the nuance.
But then they say, so is my teacher wrong? I lean towards saying “yes” but I want them to also respect their teachers and not discredit everything.
I understand that but I understood from your comment that you are teaching your children to believe in it, otherwise you would have a far greater problem on your hand.
Not understood unless the chasm has widened to the point where it is unrecognizable? Davening? Learning? Shabbat (ok, DL flush toilets on Shabbis in Israel😄)?
This is an important subject that requires a longer response...but after looking at the Ima mother thread this stuck out
"I said that there are some seminaries that push kollel so much, and chashivus hatorah, which is beautiful, but if the girls marry and eventually their husbands work, they feel like losers and failures.
Ds said that the yeshivos should and do talk Abt this because it's not in the wife's hands.
I said that's true- and if you didn't end up in kollel for life, how would you feel?
Like a loser? (He said yes)"
scary
BTW if you think there are no males on Ima mother Lol....I know plenty
An anthropologist had to be banned for this exact reason. Also, imamother is an anonymous internet space. There was a story once about a molesting Uncle Moishy. The OP had never heard of the singer Uncle Moishy.
Not entirely on point but this reminded me about a talk I attended many years ago given by a well known American woman teacher in Israeli seminary who has published books. The talk was well attended because of her stature. I don’t recall the specific topic but at one point she announced that the “Torah view” on addiction is that it’s not a disease. Someone commented that her statement was against the weight of medical authority but so be it. I was very upset because of addiction in my family but eventually realized she doesn’t really know what she’s talking about. I lost all respect for her.
I think the most important thing is for people to find a real Talmid Chacham who has common sense and understands people and to become close to him (or to become that Talmid Chacham oneself).
You have to keep in mind that the alternative to "radicalizing rebbeim" is not some utopia of 100% "nuanced rebbeim" (which you acknowledge there are plenty of anyways). The alternative is not rebbeim who agree with Ash. You know what the alternative is, and it ain't pretty. Just look at Slifkin's blog for a hint, the reality is much worse.
There are many people within the yeshiva world who are not so black and white. No need to run outside the yeshiva world, there just needs to be some system in place where the rebbeim and parents are on the same page a bit more (which BTW is something that in the MO world they complain about a lot more).
I would say that every person will have a different perspective on Torah matters, which makes it impossible to have the rebbeim and parents be on the same page. I'm sure many parents agreed with the things the rebbeim were telling their students, just as much as other parents totally disagreed. Perhaps the answer is for parents to stop abdicating their child's education to a "system". It's your child, it's your responsibility to keep your hand on the pulse and teach them what you think is correct. Also from experience, and I have seen this play itself out over and over again- if you give your children a solid basis, whichever way they go, as they get older, they'll start to align themselves with the "hashkafah" they saw at home.
... not even tutoring jobs, for the boys who would benefit from a more broad-minded approach. Why? Because principals are the ones who do the recommending -- and they're only recommending chevreh from the same shnit that has the boys uninspired and bored in the first place.
But it's still fair to point out that this is a problem and there is room for improvement, even if the alternative is worse and the solutions need to come without a complete overhaul.
If Slifkin wrote this post, the tone and ensuing response would be different, but I don't see Ash as someone who is against the system at all.
Talking about radicals and extremes, the guy you linked to who was so outraged at Rav Gershon Ribner for his extremism, one of the first things to pop up on his feed is "If you vote for this evil racist moron, I despise you. If you vote for this, you are forever branded with it:" Talk about radical extremes! (I can't stand Trump as much as the next guy, but I would never say that!)
Another day. Another rant. No solutions given other than “yeshivish people made me feel bad, maybe they should be more like me” and now I can’t move on. Listen to a Mordechai Shapiro song, get back on that horse! Life good!
Another day. Another rant. No solutions given other than “yeshivish people made me feel bad, maybe they should be more like me” and now I can’t move on. Listen to a Mordechai Shapiro song, get back on that horse! Life good!
A boy, and girl, is bombarded by messages from the lowest common denominator. He/she will be told that singers are doing G-d's work, and that kiddush Hashem means hugging a stranger. There is lot of 'street foolishness' sold in the name of the Torah. A Rebbe who reminds his talmidim that there is little inherent value in a kumzitz, is just redressing the balance.
If that was the only message a bochur heard, I would be upset. But that is not true. When the newspapers and magazines are abolished, we can discuss Rebbeim and their lack of nuance. Until then, there is a necessity for these ideas to float around the world.
You are a good example of the type of person who is that Rebbe! Why do magazines need to be abolished for Rebbeim to be normal? Every bar daas except you understands that authority figures have more say than magazines. Ridiculous strawmanning.
Bochurim hear many messages, just like everyone else. They were not born in Philadelphia/Long Beach/Stamford/South Fallsburg. They read newspapers and magazines, and are now in Yeshiva. For one of twenty Rebbeim to make some comments like this is simply redressing the balance.
The simplistic, sophomoric, know-it-all and formulaic thinking goes to the highest level; it's fostering a culture of morons (and that's aside from the emotional disconnect that's fostering a culture of heartlessness):
Calling someone a moron effectively silences discussion.
But I will call you out. What is wrong with Rabbi Feinstein's point? He is teaching his Talmidim, consistently, that their primary occupation and obligation is to the Gemara Tosfos that they are learning. Even if the world around is in flux, discussing major geo-political concerns, their job is Torah and only Torah. Any discussion about the hostages, for bochurim who have no input in the decision, is a distraction.
Call me a moron if you want, but he has a valid point and precedent shows his position as prevailing. Baalei Tosfos spent the night before their murder discussing minutiae of טומאה וטהרה.
You may think that someone who disagrees with you is a moron. But that says more about you than about him.
Even if some individuals need to follow their own path, the Yeshiva, and the Yeshiva system, is built on the idea that the development of a Yid must pass through a period of intensive single-minded focus on Torah. Rabbi Feinstein didn't make this up, neither did any other Rosh Yeshiva. Volozhin was no different in this respect. Even Bar-Ilan admits that his father opposed any other activities in Yeshiva besides learning Torah.
Single minded focus on Torah is excellent for those who chose that life - which is the case in Volozhin and not the case for contemporary frum boys, who have no real choice in the matter.
It's unhealthy when a RY (like where I went) banned all outside reading material - even frum - so bochrim should only focus on learning. There was no outlet allowed, except maybe a little basketball. It's insane and moronic.
Yeshiva means a place for single-minded focus on learning.
No, not everyone who learned in Yeshiva lives that life forever, and it is not even designed to be like that. But the basis of a successful ruchniyusdige future is a few years of singleminded focus on learning. Rabbanim, Dayyanim, Gedolim, and Mechanchim do not singlemindedly focus on learning. But they need that background to be effective.
I am not the one who invented this, neither is Rabbi Feinstein. This has been true since time immemorial.
I don’t disagree. The problem is that everyone is forced to go to a yeshiva. That paradigm worked in Eastern Europe when only a small minority of the best and brightest went to yeshiva. Everyone who was there was there by choice. Today the expectation is that every charedi boy will learn in yeshiva. It’s the only acceptable path. And therefore you have large numbers of boys who simply can’t do it, they can’t have that single minded focus on learning and only learning.
You can’t take an elite institution, the Eastern Europe yeshiva, and turn it into a mass institution without either changing or something breaking.
Because he could have said the issue is extremely complex, highly emotional, and about which we lack the necessary information to give a definitive answer -- rather than call it "devarim betailim" and then give his own simplistic and self-assured response.
He could have said; "It's extremely important, heart-rending, and defies easy answers, so while your thoughts should be with Clal Yisroel, the best thing you can do for Clal Yisroel is use this extra motivation to learn even more intensely."
He was talking to his bochurim, and for them, at this juncture in their lives, it is devarim betailim.
I would think most would agree that, for agents in the field, any discussion about global warming is a distraction. Even if global warming is an important issue.
Remember, he didn't issue a press release, he was talking to his talmidim.
Except that he then proceeded to talk about it (can't have it both ways; it's either devarim betailim or it isn't):
לאחר מכן הוסיף ואמר ראש הישיבה "וכי אתם חושבים שזה הסכם עם השלטון כאן בישראל, זה הרי הסכם בין אמריקה לערבים, השלטון כאן אינו מאן דאמר, אמריקה דורשת, וכך יהיה, הצבא אין לו כלום, בלי אמריקה אין להם כדור אחד לירות בו, כל הצבא בנוי מתחילתו ועד סופו על אמריקה, הם הבעלי בתים והם המחליטים".
Not that it is the full truth. It is certainly hyperbole. But it is a lot closer to the truth than what I see from much of the DL community (i.e., the opposite of this).
Too many rabbeim are bachurim who never grew up, and I think that is a large part of the problem.
luxury beliefs as well
That is not true. All day learning was geared for an elite fee that chose that. To extrapolate that to the modern day rule is wrong and killing bochrim.
Any advice for a dad like myself with young kids who want the benefits of an Orthodox Education and are also scared about this type of reality?
Teach nuance. And maybe send to an out of town school or a school like Darchei.
And how important is it to also not completely discredit the teachers while teaching nuance at home?
For example My kid is taught to say “bh everything is fine”. And I want to teach them that it’s okay for things to not be fine. We can accept our emotions as being not okay and we can communicate them to our friends in an honest way. So I teach them the nuance.
But then they say, so is my teacher wrong? I lean towards saying “yes” but I want them to also respect their teachers and not discredit everything.
I hope that makes sense.
Say yes.
But try to teach them that this is part of the very Torah which their Rebbeim teach and which grants them their authority.
Believing in the Torah and Chazal necessitates an understanding that even the smartest people can often make the greatest mistakes.
If you do this right this can be an excellent learning experience. In all areas of life a strong dose of cynicism is very useful.
I don’t believe in Rebbeims authority though but I appreciate the point.
I understand that but I understood from your comment that you are teaching your children to believe in it, otherwise you would have a far greater problem on your hand.
I think orthodoxy doesn’t require belief that our Rebbeim are authority. Just experts is fine.
Teach nuance. You can know logically something is fine and still not feel fine and that's ok.
Move to Israel and enroll your children in Dati Leumi Torani schools.
That sounds more scary. Joining a group I know very little about.
Understood.
Not understood unless the chasm has widened to the point where it is unrecognizable? Davening? Learning? Shabbat (ok, DL flush toilets on Shabbis in Israel😄)?
This is an important subject that requires a longer response...but after looking at the Ima mother thread this stuck out
"I said that there are some seminaries that push kollel so much, and chashivus hatorah, which is beautiful, but if the girls marry and eventually their husbands work, they feel like losers and failures.
Ds said that the yeshivos should and do talk Abt this because it's not in the wife's hands.
I said that's true- and if you didn't end up in kollel for life, how would you feel?
Like a loser? (He said yes)"
scary
BTW if you think there are no males on Ima mother Lol....I know plenty
An anthropologist had to be banned for this exact reason. Also, imamother is an anonymous internet space. There was a story once about a molesting Uncle Moishy. The OP had never heard of the singer Uncle Moishy.
Crazy. I guess you are on Imamother?
Well, I certainly have a right to be. I'm also a moderator for one of the subforums.
Can you share my post there? Thank you
Check your email.
Not entirely on point but this reminded me about a talk I attended many years ago given by a well known American woman teacher in Israeli seminary who has published books. The talk was well attended because of her stature. I don’t recall the specific topic but at one point she announced that the “Torah view” on addiction is that it’s not a disease. Someone commented that her statement was against the weight of medical authority but so be it. I was very upset because of addiction in my family but eventually realized she doesn’t really know what she’s talking about. I lost all respect for her.
I think the most important thing is for people to find a real Talmid Chacham who has common sense and understands people and to become close to him (or to become that Talmid Chacham oneself).
You have to keep in mind that the alternative to "radicalizing rebbeim" is not some utopia of 100% "nuanced rebbeim" (which you acknowledge there are plenty of anyways). The alternative is not rebbeim who agree with Ash. You know what the alternative is, and it ain't pretty. Just look at Slifkin's blog for a hint, the reality is much worse.
There are many people within the yeshiva world who are not so black and white. No need to run outside the yeshiva world, there just needs to be some system in place where the rebbeim and parents are on the same page a bit more (which BTW is something that in the MO world they complain about a lot more).
I would say that every person will have a different perspective on Torah matters, which makes it impossible to have the rebbeim and parents be on the same page. I'm sure many parents agreed with the things the rebbeim were telling their students, just as much as other parents totally disagreed. Perhaps the answer is for parents to stop abdicating their child's education to a "system". It's your child, it's your responsibility to keep your hand on the pulse and teach them what you think is correct. Also from experience, and I have seen this play itself out over and over again- if you give your children a solid basis, whichever way they go, as they get older, they'll start to align themselves with the "hashkafah" they saw at home.
Many people. Unfortunately, those people don't get the jobs.
... not even tutoring jobs, for the boys who would benefit from a more broad-minded approach. Why? Because principals are the ones who do the recommending -- and they're only recommending chevreh from the same shnit that has the boys uninspired and bored in the first place.
I would say that word of mouth helps. I've seen some very good tutors.
But it's still fair to point out that this is a problem and there is room for improvement, even if the alternative is worse and the solutions need to come without a complete overhaul.
If Slifkin wrote this post, the tone and ensuing response would be different, but I don't see Ash as someone who is against the system at all.
You do realize there’s a middle ground between Gershon Ribner and Slifkin?
There are many choshiv bney Torah that have nuance.
You don’t have to be either fire and brimstone or modern orthodox…
Talking about radicals and extremes, the guy you linked to who was so outraged at Rav Gershon Ribner for his extremism, one of the first things to pop up on his feed is "If you vote for this evil racist moron, I despise you. If you vote for this, you are forever branded with it:" Talk about radical extremes! (I can't stand Trump as much as the next guy, but I would never say that!)
Yes, that's moronic.
But the reverse regarding Kamala or Biden is heard all the time in yeshiva. The goyish liberals yimach shemam.
Why I have friends who told me they'd cut contact.if I didn't vote for Trump.
Not sure why you’re so black and white…
Rav Gershon Ribber says insane things,and publicly humiliates people.
Speak to his children about the abuse they endured from him.
I have seen enough from that man to know he’s evil.
Rabbi Emmanuel Feldman wrote an amazing essay for Tradition in the aftermath of the disengagement.
https://traditiononline.org/plunging-into-mighty-waters-and-emerging-with-a-broken-shard-new-orleans-and-the-mind-of-god/
Another day. Another rant. No solutions given other than “yeshivish people made me feel bad, maybe they should be more like me” and now I can’t move on. Listen to a Mordechai Shapiro song, get back on that horse! Life good!
Another day. Another rant. No solutions given other than “yeshivish people made me feel bad, maybe they should be more like me” and now I can’t move on. Listen to a Mordechai Shapiro song, get back on that horse! Life good!
Let's take the original example.
A boy, and girl, is bombarded by messages from the lowest common denominator. He/she will be told that singers are doing G-d's work, and that kiddush Hashem means hugging a stranger. There is lot of 'street foolishness' sold in the name of the Torah. A Rebbe who reminds his talmidim that there is little inherent value in a kumzitz, is just redressing the balance.
If that was the only message a bochur heard, I would be upset. But that is not true. When the newspapers and magazines are abolished, we can discuss Rebbeim and their lack of nuance. Until then, there is a necessity for these ideas to float around the world.
You are a good example of the type of person who is that Rebbe! Why do magazines need to be abolished for Rebbeim to be normal? Every bar daas except you understands that authority figures have more say than magazines. Ridiculous strawmanning.
I must have hit a nerve, because you are uncharacteristically unreadable.
What are you talking about?
Why don't you reread what you wrote?
I did so, but I don't know what you wrote.
Every bar daas agrees with you? Is that logic? A source? An authority?
A bochur is bombarded by one message only. It is healthy for him to hear a dissenting opinion at least once.
Huh? The one message only they hear is from yeshiva.
And you call that a nuanced response?!
Bochurim hear many messages, just like everyone else. They were not born in Philadelphia/Long Beach/Stamford/South Fallsburg. They read newspapers and magazines, and are now in Yeshiva. For one of twenty Rebbeim to make some comments like this is simply redressing the balance.
https://ploinusalmoinus.substack.com/p/i-dont-care-about-the-hostages/comment/86221985
Wait. Why are newspapers being abolished?
The simplistic, sophomoric, know-it-all and formulaic thinking goes to the highest level; it's fostering a culture of morons (and that's aside from the emotional disconnect that's fostering a culture of heartlessness):
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/2353038/hagaon-harav-chaim-feinsteins-hashkafah-on-the-hostage-deal.html
Calling someone a moron effectively silences discussion.
But I will call you out. What is wrong with Rabbi Feinstein's point? He is teaching his Talmidim, consistently, that their primary occupation and obligation is to the Gemara Tosfos that they are learning. Even if the world around is in flux, discussing major geo-political concerns, their job is Torah and only Torah. Any discussion about the hostages, for bochurim who have no input in the decision, is a distraction.
Call me a moron if you want, but he has a valid point and precedent shows his position as prevailing. Baalei Tosfos spent the night before their murder discussing minutiae of טומאה וטהרה.
The idea that their job is Torah and only Torah is psychologically unhealthy. What if they have other interests as well?
That is your opinion.
That is not his.
You may think that someone who disagrees with you is a moron. But that says more about you than about him.
Even if some individuals need to follow their own path, the Yeshiva, and the Yeshiva system, is built on the idea that the development of a Yid must pass through a period of intensive single-minded focus on Torah. Rabbi Feinstein didn't make this up, neither did any other Rosh Yeshiva. Volozhin was no different in this respect. Even Bar-Ilan admits that his father opposed any other activities in Yeshiva besides learning Torah.
I never called him a moron.
Single minded focus on Torah is excellent for those who chose that life - which is the case in Volozhin and not the case for contemporary frum boys, who have no real choice in the matter.
It's unhealthy when a RY (like where I went) banned all outside reading material - even frum - so bochrim should only focus on learning. There was no outlet allowed, except maybe a little basketball. It's insane and moronic.
Words have meaning.
Yeshiva means a place for single-minded focus on learning.
No, not everyone who learned in Yeshiva lives that life forever, and it is not even designed to be like that. But the basis of a successful ruchniyusdige future is a few years of singleminded focus on learning. Rabbanim, Dayyanim, Gedolim, and Mechanchim do not singlemindedly focus on learning. But they need that background to be effective.
I am not the one who invented this, neither is Rabbi Feinstein. This has been true since time immemorial.
I don’t disagree. The problem is that everyone is forced to go to a yeshiva. That paradigm worked in Eastern Europe when only a small minority of the best and brightest went to yeshiva. Everyone who was there was there by choice. Today the expectation is that every charedi boy will learn in yeshiva. It’s the only acceptable path. And therefore you have large numbers of boys who simply can’t do it, they can’t have that single minded focus on learning and only learning.
You can’t take an elite institution, the Eastern Europe yeshiva, and turn it into a mass institution without either changing or something breaking.
Because he could have said the issue is extremely complex, highly emotional, and about which we lack the necessary information to give a definitive answer -- rather than call it "devarim betailim" and then give his own simplistic and self-assured response.
The first two phrases require nuance.
Right.
He could have said; "It's extremely important, heart-rending, and defies easy answers, so while your thoughts should be with Clal Yisroel, the best thing you can do for Clal Yisroel is use this extra motivation to learn even more intensely."
He was talking to his bochurim, and for them, at this juncture in their lives, it is devarim betailim.
I would think most would agree that, for agents in the field, any discussion about global warming is a distraction. Even if global warming is an important issue.
Remember, he didn't issue a press release, he was talking to his talmidim.
Except that he then proceeded to talk about it (can't have it both ways; it's either devarim betailim or it isn't):
לאחר מכן הוסיף ואמר ראש הישיבה "וכי אתם חושבים שזה הסכם עם השלטון כאן בישראל, זה הרי הסכם בין אמריקה לערבים, השלטון כאן אינו מאן דאמר, אמריקה דורשת, וכך יהיה, הצבא אין לו כלום, בלי אמריקה אין להם כדור אחד לירות בו, כל הצבא בנוי מתחילתו ועד סופו על אמריקה, הם הבעלי בתים והם המחליטים".
The truth hurts, huh?
Not that it is the full truth. It is certainly hyperbole. But it is a lot closer to the truth than what I see from much of the DL community (i.e., the opposite of this).