It is stunning! I actually think it's important to have beautiful batei midrash if one can afford it. But don't say how you are saving the Olam Hatorah.
I'm just saying that whoa, it's really gorgeous. Like breathtakingly gorgeous. Like "I don't need a tour through the breakers for my next honeymoon when I can go visit yeshivas ateres shlomo" gorgeous
I'll just add here one more justification for Sorotzkin here that he clearly feels that these days the Charedi world needs a very strong boost of self-confidence in light of the war being waged against them. (There was an interview with him on Kol Mevaser on Chol Hamoed where he touched on this.)
No-one is looking to convince the Zionists. It's a lost cause. Even the religious Slfkinites seem to be a lost cause.
Ultimately very few people are rational thinkers (especially Rationalists).
Some people probably feel that for impressionable young adults this approach may do the trick. Yes, it's cultlike and I don't like that, but probably better that than become like the DL community.
While the war in Israel is is still being waged and the " terrible "Zionists are dying protecting Am Yistael you have nothing to say except to demean them. OCHER YISRAEL!
Sholom Ber Sorotzkin is not fundraising from you for good reason.
The people he fundraises from obviously are not turned off from this. To the contrary it appeals to them.
You shouldn't be complaining about Sholom Ber Sorotzkin. You should be complaining about the gvirish oligarchic culture which our society has descended into. I think Adirei HaTorah is far worse in this regard.
"There was one stipulation. The effort to support Torah must include the whole of Klal Yisroel, not just a handful of contributors. To that end, all the donations were given on condition – half the money will come from a handful of donors but the other half must come from the efforts of Klal Yisrael, with every supporter of Torah giving what he is able."
A rich man of my acquaintance was telling me about a high-end restaurant party to raise money for a tzedakah that provides millions for the poor, yet still runs under the radar. He was poking fun at it, and generally eschews these kinds of events.
I told him, "Your poking fun sounds self-serving when you end up not giving a penny to anybody. Here's a challenge - give the same amount of money those people give, but without the hoopla. That will show me you mean it, and are not just looking for a way not to give anything to someone else."
Of course, his response was to look at his phone and find somewhere else to be.
So before we poke fun at other people and their yitzrei hara, let us check ourselves and how much we are willing to give away to others.
It is said that Rav Steinman asked him what percentage of his fundraising is for cavod. He answered, “About 90%”. Rav Steinman replied something to the effect of “Too bad it’s not 95%. Then Olam HaTorah would gain even more.”
I hope I have the details of that story right. It certainly was the idea.
SB Sorotzkin has a fundraising model. It fits with his personality and yichus as a Sorotzkin, but it does the job. His model is selling success and glamor through supporting Torah.
Now some of us may think that this is wrong, we may be of the opinion that Torah should not be sold like it was a commodity or must-have accessory.
But SBS never lied about his methodology and his system has worked for him. People give him millions because of his fundraising tactics, even as they make fun of them in the same sentence.
A gorgeous $2m Aron Hakodesh is a part of his fundraising apparatus.
If you wish, there are many Yeshivos and Kollelim, all over the world, that adhere to the old-fashioned methods of fundraising. You can give any of them, your connection to Torah will be the same.
Fact is, successful baalebatim rarely appreciate the importance of Torah sufficiently to part with their hard-earned money to support it. It is easier for their minds to appreciate the activities of Shai Graucher, Chabad, Hatzalah, and Nachazik Chazak. So it is sold to their mindsets, with the idea of 'partnering with success' and 'changing the world' holding much greater sway than עץ חיים היא למחזיקים בה ותמכיה מאשר.
I am not saying he/they are right. But your question about 'saving the olam hatorah' is moot when this is the way to bring large donations.
Btw, many people don't give him a penny. But he knows that ten people giving $100,000 each is less efficient than one $1m donation. And that is what he is going for. Leave the pushkes for Shomrei Hachomos.
"There was one stipulation. The effort to support Torah must include the whole of Klal Yisroel, not just a handful of contributors. To that end, all the donations were given on condition – half the money will come from a handful of donors but the other half must come from the efforts of Klal Yisrael, with every supporter of Torah giving what he is able."
No, because they think they are helping a Torah institution get out of debt. Not promote an ostentatious Aron.
You are using classic conmen excuses. It's pathetic.
“They want to be cheated”. “They know they can't win”. “They're paying for the entertainment “. A frum Torah institution has a responsibility to use money responsibly.
It would be a good taana if he wasn't actually raising money for the yeshiva students. But since he is raising money for the yeshiva students, and that $2 million aron kodesh is probably a fraction of the total he is raising for the students, it doesn't seem like a good-faith argument.
There an obvious difference. (Hint: it's in the order it was raised and how they were raised.)
Do you think it's justified to take millions I'm funding for Yeshivos, have adopt a kollel to raise funds for struggling avreichim and then go build such an Aron?
זה קלי ואנוהו כפשוטו means to make a beautiful, unbelievably gorgeous beis hamikdash. If anything should be beautiful, it should be that. No one would be upset about that.
The question is what about our mikdash me'at, how should they be made? I don't think a two million dollar aron kodesh is something necessary.
If someone wants to donate it, np! But it's not behavior I'd particularly encourage. And that's Ash's main point: I agree. We should roll our eyes and be mechanech that this isn't what we are about. Nothing against rsbs personally.
True - and we should roll our eyes at those mansions as well (not even in a judgy way - usually the people who spend like that on themselves are way more generous with their tzedaka as well - just in a self reiteration of priorities way)
Whatever. Like people here say: he has his shita, and this is it. I personally know people in his kollels and yeshivas, and they are not rich by any means, but he is holding them up. His daughters were in school with my daughters. At that time they lived very simply. I don’t know the story now, and I don’t care. I would go back to Rav Steinman’s quote: he has done a lot of good.
I think there's a huge difference between that and this...
I have to say, that is actually stunning! We might as well build a beis hamikdash for this price; let him be the fundraiser...
But yes, people do need to see this before giving another dime. We need to have our priorities straight.
It is stunning! I actually think it's important to have beautiful batei midrash if one can afford it. But don't say how you are saving the Olam Hatorah.
The Gemara is quite clear about the correct priorities
Shekalim 15a
רִבִּי חָמָא בַּר חֲנִינָה ורִבִּי הוֹשַׁעְיָה הֲווּן מְטַייְלִין בְּאִילֵּין כְּנִישְׁתָּא דְּלוֹד. אָמַר רִבִּי חָמָא בַּר חֲנִינָה לְרִבִּי
הוֹשַׁעְיָה. כַּמָּה מָמוֹן שִׁיקְּעוּ אֲבוֹתַיי כָאן. אָמַר לֵיהּ. כַּמָּה נְפָשׁוֹת שִׁיקְּעוּ אֲבוֹתֶיךָ כָאן. לָא הֲווָה אִית בְּנֵי נַשׁ דְּיִלְעוּן בְּאוּרַיְתָא. רִבִּי אָבוּן עֲבַד אִילֵּין תַּרְעַייָה דְּסִדְרָא רַבָּא. אֲתָא רִבִּי מָנָא לְגַבֵּיהּ. אַמַר לֵיהּ. חֲמִי מָה עַבְדִּית. אַמַר לֵיהּ. וַיִּשְׁכַּ֨ח יִשְׂרָאֵ֜ל אֶת־עוֹשֵׂ֗הוּ וַיִּ֨בֶן֙ הֵֽיכָל֔וֹת. לָא הֲוָה בְּנֵי נַשׁ דְּיִלְעוּן בְּאוֹרַיְתָא.
Thanks for this.
Yah were on the same page.
I'm just saying that whoa, it's really gorgeous. Like breathtakingly gorgeous. Like "I don't need a tour through the breakers for my next honeymoon when I can go visit yeshivas ateres shlomo" gorgeous
I'll just add here one more justification for Sorotzkin here that he clearly feels that these days the Charedi world needs a very strong boost of self-confidence in light of the war being waged against them. (There was an interview with him on Kol Mevaser on Chol Hamoed where he touched on this.)
I think he is right about that.
This Aron will certainly convince the Zionists that we need the Medina to support the Olam hatorah!
Haha.
No-one is looking to convince the Zionists. It's a lost cause. Even the religious Slfkinites seem to be a lost cause.
Ultimately very few people are rational thinkers (especially Rationalists).
Some people probably feel that for impressionable young adults this approach may do the trick. Yes, it's cultlike and I don't like that, but probably better that than become like the DL community.
While the war in Israel is is still being waged and the " terrible "Zionists are dying protecting Am Yistael you have nothing to say except to demean them. OCHER YISRAEL!
This is stupid, as זכרון wrote.
Sholom Ber Sorotzkin is not fundraising from you for good reason.
The people he fundraises from obviously are not turned off from this. To the contrary it appeals to them.
You shouldn't be complaining about Sholom Ber Sorotzkin. You should be complaining about the gvirish oligarchic culture which our society has descended into. I think Adirei HaTorah is far worse in this regard.
The gvir ogliarchy
Doesn’t IT say in TaNaCh somewhere “But when I stepped into the House of HaShem, I saw their end!!!!!!” 🫢
"There was one stipulation. The effort to support Torah must include the whole of Klal Yisroel, not just a handful of contributors. To that end, all the donations were given on condition – half the money will come from a handful of donors but the other half must come from the efforts of Klal Yisrael, with every supporter of Torah giving what he is able."
Sounds like he wants klal yisroel to help pay
Someone should draw a cartoon of a representation of your description “the gvirish oligarchic culture into which our society has descended”…
Ask AI. (I don't know how to use AI)
I don’t either.
A rich man of my acquaintance was telling me about a high-end restaurant party to raise money for a tzedakah that provides millions for the poor, yet still runs under the radar. He was poking fun at it, and generally eschews these kinds of events.
I told him, "Your poking fun sounds self-serving when you end up not giving a penny to anybody. Here's a challenge - give the same amount of money those people give, but without the hoopla. That will show me you mean it, and are not just looking for a way not to give anything to someone else."
Of course, his response was to look at his phone and find somewhere else to be.
So before we poke fun at other people and their yitzrei hara, let us check ourselves and how much we are willing to give away to others.
Yes, we shouldn't be criticizing individuals, but I think it is very important to reflect on where our society is holding and how it is structured.
Gvirim always held sway in society, far more than nowadays.
Gvirim always lived affluent lifestyles, far beyond that of the simple person.
Nothing has fundamentally changed.
Asking people not to spend their money is asking people not to be human. Ain't going to work.
There were never 2 million dollar aron kodeshes in a private institution. Don't be ridiculous.
And even if they were, they weren't written up on Yeshivaworld. So that's the difference.
Way to confuse the point.
Like something decaying falling down a hill into an abyss?
You have raised a good point.
Rather garish, I think. Kind of like Trump's gold airplane.
I guess that the Lord now wants gold and silver instead of animal sacrifices. Tell those red cows that they are safe.
Not the first litvishe rebbe unfortunately, not even close
Website is also very flashy...אין עניות במקום עשירות, that's for sure!
It is said that Rav Steinman asked him what percentage of his fundraising is for cavod. He answered, “About 90%”. Rav Steinman replied something to the effect of “Too bad it’s not 95%. Then Olam HaTorah would gain even more.”
I hope I have the details of that story right. It certainly was the idea.
For the record, this is incredibly ugly, and if you can't all see that straight away that is a very powerful argument against Litvish culture in toto.
I feel torn about this.
I completely understand your point, however I think our souls should be gorgeous.
I hope he used funds from a rich gvir to pay for it.
My take fwiw: https://daastorah.substack.com/p/were-the-suckers/comment/111267207
Let's place the facts as they are.
SB Sorotzkin has a fundraising model. It fits with his personality and yichus as a Sorotzkin, but it does the job. His model is selling success and glamor through supporting Torah.
Now some of us may think that this is wrong, we may be of the opinion that Torah should not be sold like it was a commodity or must-have accessory.
But SBS never lied about his methodology and his system has worked for him. People give him millions because of his fundraising tactics, even as they make fun of them in the same sentence.
A gorgeous $2m Aron Hakodesh is a part of his fundraising apparatus.
If you wish, there are many Yeshivos and Kollelim, all over the world, that adhere to the old-fashioned methods of fundraising. You can give any of them, your connection to Torah will be the same.
The Jewish version of the Prosperity Gospel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology?wprov=sfla1
100 times over!
This is the biggest issue haunting modern Charedi society.
They think collossal wastes of money for displays of 'Kavod HaTorah' is actually Kavod Htorah and even demonstrates the truth of Charedi ideology.
I live in constant dread of the consequences.
That's stretching the point.
Fact is, successful baalebatim rarely appreciate the importance of Torah sufficiently to part with their hard-earned money to support it. It is easier for their minds to appreciate the activities of Shai Graucher, Chabad, Hatzalah, and Nachazik Chazak. So it is sold to their mindsets, with the idea of 'partnering with success' and 'changing the world' holding much greater sway than עץ חיים היא למחזיקים בה ותמכיה מאשר.
I am not saying he/they are right. But your question about 'saving the olam hatorah' is moot when this is the way to bring large donations.
Btw, many people don't give him a penny. But he knows that ten people giving $100,000 each is less efficient than one $1m donation. And that is what he is going for. Leave the pushkes for Shomrei Hachomos.
I don't know. The yeshiva world article sounds like he was appealing to the common man. He should turn down donations from the lo yutzlachs then.
He is the Frum Paula White
https://www.christianpost.com/news/trump-advisor-paula-white-cain-promises-supernatural-blessings.html
"There was one stipulation. The effort to support Torah must include the whole of Klal Yisroel, not just a handful of contributors. To that end, all the donations were given on condition – half the money will come from a handful of donors but the other half must come from the efforts of Klal Yisrael, with every supporter of Torah giving what he is able."
So I'm referring to that half
I sometimes write advertising copy. I always wonder if anyone reads it.
But even regarding that half, people give their small donations because they think they are partnering with success.
No, because they think they are helping a Torah institution get out of debt. Not promote an ostentatious Aron.
You are using classic conmen excuses. It's pathetic.
“They want to be cheated”. “They know they can't win”. “They're paying for the entertainment “. A frum Torah institution has a responsibility to use money responsibly.
You would really be upset if you read about the Bais Hamikdash/Mishkan....
I think there's an obvious difference. (Mainly the Mishkan wasn't raising money to get bnei Torah out of debt).
You're sure about that?
(2 Divrei Hayamim 31:4-6)
וַיֹּ֤אמֶר לָעָם֙ לְיוֹשְׁבֵ֣י יְרוּשָׁלִַ֔ם לָתֵ֕ת מְנָ֥ת הַכֹּהֲנִ֖ים וְהַלְוִיִּ֑ם לְמַ֥עַן יֶחֶזְק֖וּ בְּתוֹרַ֥ת יְהוָֽה׃
וְכִפְרֹ֣ץ הַדָּבָ֗ר הִרְבּ֤וּ בְנֵֽי־יִשְׂרָאֵל֙ רֵאשִׁ֣ית דָּגָ֗ן תִּיר֤וֹשׁ וְיִצְהָר֙ וּדְבַ֔שׁ וְכֹ֖ל תְּבוּאַ֣ת שָׂדֶ֑ה וּמַעְשַׂ֥ר הַכֹּ֛ל לָרֹ֖ב הֵבִֽיאוּ׃
וּבְנֵ֧י יִשְׂרָאֵ֣ל וִֽיהוּדָ֗ה הַיּֽוֹשְׁבִים֮ בְּעָרֵ֣י יְהוּדָה֒ גַּם־הֵ֗ם מַעְשַׂ֤ר בָּקָר֙ וָצֹ֔אן וּמַעְשַׂ֣ר קָֽדָשִׁ֔ים הַמְקֻדָּשִׁ֖ים לַיהוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֵיהֶ֑ם הֵבִ֕יאוּ וַֽיִּתְּנ֖וּ עֲרֵמ֥וֹת עֲרֵמֽוֹת׃
You would have been upset that Chiziyahu didn't first sell all the gold in the Bais Hamikdash before he raised money for the Bnei Torah.
I'll share this source Karpas provided
דְּלֹמָא. רִבִּי חָמָא בַּר חֲנִינָה ורִבִּי הוֹשַׁעְיָה הֲווּן מְטַייְלִין בְּאִילֵּין כְּנִישְׁתָּא דְּלוֹד. אָמַר רִבִּי חָמָא בַּר חֲנִינָה לְרִבִּי הוֹשַׁעְיָה. כַּמָּה מָמוֹן שִׁיקְּעוּ אֲבוֹתַיי כָאן. אָמַר לֵיהּ. כַּמָּה נְפָשׁוֹת שִׁיקְּעוּ אֲבוֹתֶיךָ כָאן. לָא הֲווָה אִית בְּנֵי נַשׁ דְּיִלְעוּן בְּאוּרַיְתָא.
https://www.sefaria.org/Jerusalem_Talmud_Shekalim.5.4.9
It would be a good taana if he wasn't actually raising money for the yeshiva students. But since he is raising money for the yeshiva students, and that $2 million aron kodesh is probably a fraction of the total he is raising for the students, it doesn't seem like a good-faith argument.
There an obvious difference. (Hint: it's in the order it was raised and how they were raised.)
Do you think it's justified to take millions I'm funding for Yeshivos, have adopt a kollel to raise funds for struggling avreichim and then go build such an Aron?
He bought it from that money?
Not necessarily. But it's not a great look.
Do you have any experience in today's fundraising world (with the 'big money')?
זה קלי ואנוהו כפשוטו means to make a beautiful, unbelievably gorgeous beis hamikdash. If anything should be beautiful, it should be that. No one would be upset about that.
The question is what about our mikdash me'at, how should they be made? I don't think a two million dollar aron kodesh is something necessary.
If someone wants to donate it, np! But it's not behavior I'd particularly encourage. And that's Ash's main point: I agree. We should roll our eyes and be mechanech that this isn't what we are about. Nothing against rsbs personally.
I think if people are building eye popping mansions, building a shul that is up to that standard isn't absurd.
True - and we should roll our eyes at those mansions as well (not even in a judgy way - usually the people who spend like that on themselves are way more generous with their tzedaka as well - just in a self reiteration of priorities way)
Rich Jews are incredibly generous.
Whatever. Like people here say: he has his shita, and this is it. I personally know people in his kollels and yeshivas, and they are not rich by any means, but he is holding them up. His daughters were in school with my daughters. At that time they lived very simply. I don’t know the story now, and I don’t care. I would go back to Rav Steinman’s quote: he has done a lot of good.