However, I would like to point out that many in a similar situation as Lakewood Skeptic do appreciate Judaism as a culture very much. Nevertheless, because the expectation from them includes demands far beyond from what Jewish identity necessitates, and are forced to adhere to the minutae of halacha which they don't believe, this will inevitably cause a backlash where they feel the need to reject or mock the strict adherence to hahaha.
Take a look at Rabbi Neuberger’s article in mishpacha this week he examines what you describe as cultural Judaism, though obviously remaining in a communal structure does better for one’s emotional wellbeing then this sort of cringy Lana Del Ray kumzitz, perhaps we need to help people keep the facade of religion for their children’s sake, and as Skeptic displays in his article for their own as well.
Definitely true point though my personal experience with rabbis was relatively positive though at time they can be *gasp* not very relatable but hey that’s life. In general yeshivos that carry more of the mussar tradition tend to be less abusive then the more yeshivish places IMHO
Ha! I couldn't disagree more. In fact, recognize that someone who is still not frum keeps yiddishkeit and wishes he could do more only helps our youth, not bring them down. In contrast, insisting we only idolize those who are "Roshei Yeshiva" leads to the disillusionment Exit98 feels. No one went OTD because Matisyahu wasn't as frum as he could have been. But when a Rosh Yeshiva abuses someone, it is worse.
You're not taking into account how superficial the "without doubt" "absolutists" are. With no foundation in machshava, all they have is their culture (which they delude themselves into calling Emuna.
and it's ironic that the singer he's calling out (I don't know who he refers to) seems to be the only one to have actually THOUGHT about emunah. Yet the ones who have never thought ("without a doubters") see the singer as the cultural Jew and themselves as the big intellectuals!!!!
The thing that I took away from that sad post was just how boring these individual's life's seem to be, other than that Pinny guy they're lives seem underwhelming and boring as in they're not grappling with existential profound philosophical religous issues nor do they seem to be doing anything particularly exciting or adventurous. Instead they're just existing in the fringes of frum society and....eating pepperoni pizza and smoking weed. Like if you're gonna leave Jewish observance and community than at least do something interesting.
“And that is what makes me sad. The skeptic in Lakewood Skeptic’s post aren’t merely leaving their religion - they are showing their religion was never a home in the first place.“
I’m very curious about the numbers on this. I am a nonbeliever who still finds the nostalgia and feels good about a lot of parts of the culture. I wonder how prevalent a rejection of the culture actually is. Even in the article, there was a lot of mention of people maintaining a connection to the culture.
I don't want to defend Lakewood-Yeshivishism, because I don't like or support it, but how much have you actually been in Israel, because I'm not sure people going to Cyprus, having ambiguously consensual group sex, getting released from arrest, then sticking a white cappel on your head and singing עם ישראל חי at the airport is really such a great thing, and that is a pretty fair, if extreme, representation of the 'traditional' Jewish Israeli culture you are writing about. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Cyprus_rape_allegation_case
Also, the song השם יתברך תמיד אובה אותי is against traditional Jewish doctrine and was written by an unrepentant talmid of rapist Eliezer Berland.
I am using this a springboard for my comment on the article, as I believe it gets to the heart of my own issue here.
When I started reading the article I was nodding my head in agreement as I feel very much the same way. However, the article then veered off so far from the way I feel, to the extent that it is the exact opposite of the way I feel.
The way I see it, the problem is that when Judaism is just a mushy-feely השם יתברך אוהב אותי תמיד then if someone doesn't believe what does he have from it?
However if one appreciates the wisdom of the culture which preserved Yiddishkeit for thousands of years, and which continues to preserve them as unique in so many ways (such as the only modern culture with a high fertility rate, an extremely high marriage rate, low divorce rates, and very high rates of tzedaka vachesed) then one will not wish to give it up so quickly, and perhaps eventually המאור שבה מחזירו למוטב.
Definitely the culture of rigidness, of idolizing 'Daas Torah' of people who just happen to have certain position due to familial background and have little real-life experience etc. is a problem but this shouldn't detract from appreciating the core of a culture which has such a high success rate in so many areas.
But this post seems to say the opposite: Let us stop focusing on the core culture of Judaism and just sing about brotherly love. Sorry, I can't go for that.
Vapid brotherly love would actually be a step up. השם יתברך תמיד אוהב אותי is literally an ode to narcissism. Maybe this is the right message for a very intellectual, extremely pious person prone to self-criticism and depression (though maybe not because it doesn't seem R. Nahman of Breslev ever cured himself), but for your average Middle Easterner it's just a total disaster.
Yeah. It would be pretty bad chinuch if you made that into a synth pop song and got kids to sing it. The gemara also says וכל מי שאין בו דעה אסור לרחם עליו, but we don't encourage children to sing that on the bus either.
To clarify, you’re not saying that these people “should” care about the culture, but rather that the community should create a culture that people actually care about because you feel the culture is beautiful. Is that accurate?
Yes. Precisely. Or more accurately, since the Torahs culture is beautiful (and as I believe divine) if people aren't feeling that way we are doing something wrong.
I think the pressure to conform and consequences for not conforming makes this very impossible for people in this situation to not feel completely stifled by Yiddishkeit
Imagine promoting Torah, but not as Hashem's Torah, rather as something Jews do! This degrades the whole idea of Torah to something similar to zoroastrianism.
Cha"v! I never meant to say that. It is definitely Hashem's Torah. My point is that is taught as magic rules rather than a coherent system and a life path. I should bez'h make a post on that.
The Rambam enumerates thirteen basic beliefs. These are necessary to follow Torah, without them, all mitzvos are simply animal actions. Eating an enjoyable cracker in the spring is not a mitzvah unless a person accepts the thirteen beliefs.
None of these include chassidus or any coherent system. Reward and punishment are necessary beliefs; if a person does not believe that he will be rewarded for his matzos and punished for eating on Yom Kippur, his eating and fasting are meaningless - מתעסק in Halachic parlance. Belief in a unified life's system, while possibly true, is not essential.
It is a unified system, but the unified system should not be necessary to keep mitzvos.
That's my point.
Sadly, some people go around announcing their superiority (also known as ביטול היש) by putting down those who keep mitzvos out of fear of geihenom and a wish to increase 'brownie points' in Gan Eden. I was addressing them.
Your description of Judaism as a bastion of monotheism is great, but what is the point of all of the rules? Is there a destination to where we are headed or is it just to be an island of monotheism amongst the depraved hellensits?
There is much more to Judaism than anything that any graduate (even the frummest) of any school of Lakewood can articulate. Unfortunately the culture is one that decries the study of any chassidus which would actually allow them the ability to understand what is the purpose of creation and the Jewish people's role in that.
The thing that I took away from that sad post was just how boring these individual's life's seem to be, other than that Pinny guy they're lives seem underwhelming and boring as in they're not grappling with existential profound philosophical religous issues nor do they seem to be doing anything particularly exciting or adventurous. Instead they're just existing in the fringes of frum society and....eating pepperoni pizza and smoking weed. Like if you're gonna leave Jewish observance and community than at least do something interesting.
The point you’re missing is that the rejection first and primarily comes from their communities and families. Driving on Shabbos even once can result in your children being expelled from school. It’s a two way street.
Nice post. I appreciate your attempts at being דן לכף זכות us for having left. I do think you kind of misread the reasons some if us went off.
Judaism is not just a culture. It is a set of laws delineated in the shulchan aruch AND a collection of random societal rules that you cannot break without being seen as less than everyone else. This translates into problems getting your kids into school, job security, and familial estrangement. There's a reason these guys and gals are in hiding. A welcoming culture does not create this environment.
So when someone starts having questions about the veracity of the stories they were brought up on, they very quickly get shut down, gaslit, and shot down.
This is true is Israel too, by the way. True, there are communities that are welcoming of non religious people. That is not a reflection at all about the reality of the charedi world in Israel.
About your point of Judaism being beautiful, what's beautiful about it? Your reasons are either vague or circular. The fact that Judaism taught monotheism to the world is both untrue (Zoroastrianism did) and dependant on it being true which is something we can question. If it wasn't questionable there would be no emuna. If it isn't true, where's the beauty?
Also, how is fasting on Yom Kippur without believing it because "that's what Jews do" any more beautiful than "because that's what god said"?
The basis of Judaism is free choice. Ultra Orthodox Jews take that away. You are ALL off the derech.
I think you may have misread my post. I am not in any way claiming that the reason why they (you?) left is because it wasn't beautiful enough. I never even touched on that. I was saying precisely your point - the lack of nostalgia for their faith shows that us frum people aren't doing a good job living it. I should write another post clarifying my intent as you and several others have misread me, but I think it's almost a kneejerk reaction due to the gaslighting most OTD people have faced. (I've been gaslit too, many times.)
Yeah I get what you meant, and you sounded completely sincere. I wasn't clear. I mean that the facts are that the halachic texts don't agree with you. מורידים ולא מעלין is one example.
First of all, Zoroastrianism is a dualistic religion and evidence for it's direct influence on the ethical monotheism of the ancient Judeans of biblical times is non existent. Second, for most of Jewish history, Judaism was mostly cultural and mimetic. That is, it was experienced by Jews through in their proximity to the ghetto, shtetl, enclave etc and it developed and was practiced organically. This overly legalistic
description of Judaism leads to an all or nothing attitude towards Judaism that in my experience many OTD folks seem to have.
Hi, I am Gedalya in this story. I created a substack to respond to this post. You can read my thoughts here: https://thebentorah.substack.com/p/pepperoni-pizza-and-lakewood-off
Beautiful piece with many powerful points.
However, I would like to point out that many in a similar situation as Lakewood Skeptic do appreciate Judaism as a culture very much. Nevertheless, because the expectation from them includes demands far beyond from what Jewish identity necessitates, and are forced to adhere to the minutae of halacha which they don't believe, this will inevitably cause a backlash where they feel the need to reject or mock the strict adherence to hahaha.
Comments should be working again. TY for those who let me know.
Take a look at Rabbi Neuberger’s article in mishpacha this week he examines what you describe as cultural Judaism, though obviously remaining in a communal structure does better for one’s emotional wellbeing then this sort of cringy Lana Del Ray kumzitz, perhaps we need to help people keep the facade of religion for their children’s sake, and as Skeptic displays in his article for their own as well.
Don't get the mishpacha. Is the article online?
Definitely true point though my personal experience with rabbis was relatively positive though at time they can be *gasp* not very relatable but hey that’s life. In general yeshivos that carry more of the mussar tradition tend to be less abusive then the more yeshivish places IMHO
https://mishpacha.com/without-doubt/
Ha! I couldn't disagree more. In fact, recognize that someone who is still not frum keeps yiddishkeit and wishes he could do more only helps our youth, not bring them down. In contrast, insisting we only idolize those who are "Roshei Yeshiva" leads to the disillusionment Exit98 feels. No one went OTD because Matisyahu wasn't as frum as he could have been. But when a Rosh Yeshiva abuses someone, it is worse.
You're not taking into account how superficial the "without doubt" "absolutists" are. With no foundation in machshava, all they have is their culture (which they delude themselves into calling Emuna.
and it's ironic that the singer he's calling out (I don't know who he refers to) seems to be the only one to have actually THOUGHT about emunah. Yet the ones who have never thought ("without a doubters") see the singer as the cultural Jew and themselves as the big intellectuals!!!!
Amir Dadon, who is appearing alongside Yishai Ribo at a separate seating concert.
Thanks.
So the concert should be boycotted by "true believers"?
How long has he been "thinking about" these things (or at least singing about it)?
Would the concert be safer had he already decided to not be frum, therefore no longer like Open Orthodoxy (which is "worse") and more like Reform?
I really should make a whole post bashing this article.
His point was that frum people operate on a different scale of things
But should they?
His point was not to idolize people who feel a connection. And that's wrong.
The thing that I took away from that sad post was just how boring these individual's life's seem to be, other than that Pinny guy they're lives seem underwhelming and boring as in they're not grappling with existential profound philosophical religous issues nor do they seem to be doing anything particularly exciting or adventurous. Instead they're just existing in the fringes of frum society and....eating pepperoni pizza and smoking weed. Like if you're gonna leave Jewish observance and community than at least do something interesting.
I agree. Go tour Japan and check out other cultures
“And that is what makes me sad. The skeptic in Lakewood Skeptic’s post aren’t merely leaving their religion - they are showing their religion was never a home in the first place.“
This literally makes me cry.
I’m very curious about the numbers on this. I am a nonbeliever who still finds the nostalgia and feels good about a lot of parts of the culture. I wonder how prevalent a rejection of the culture actually is. Even in the article, there was a lot of mention of people maintaining a connection to the culture.
I don't want to defend Lakewood-Yeshivishism, because I don't like or support it, but how much have you actually been in Israel, because I'm not sure people going to Cyprus, having ambiguously consensual group sex, getting released from arrest, then sticking a white cappel on your head and singing עם ישראל חי at the airport is really such a great thing, and that is a pretty fair, if extreme, representation of the 'traditional' Jewish Israeli culture you are writing about. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Cyprus_rape_allegation_case
Also, the song השם יתברך תמיד אובה אותי is against traditional Jewish doctrine and was written by an unrepentant talmid of rapist Eliezer Berland.
I am using this a springboard for my comment on the article, as I believe it gets to the heart of my own issue here.
When I started reading the article I was nodding my head in agreement as I feel very much the same way. However, the article then veered off so far from the way I feel, to the extent that it is the exact opposite of the way I feel.
The way I see it, the problem is that when Judaism is just a mushy-feely השם יתברך אוהב אותי תמיד then if someone doesn't believe what does he have from it?
However if one appreciates the wisdom of the culture which preserved Yiddishkeit for thousands of years, and which continues to preserve them as unique in so many ways (such as the only modern culture with a high fertility rate, an extremely high marriage rate, low divorce rates, and very high rates of tzedaka vachesed) then one will not wish to give it up so quickly, and perhaps eventually המאור שבה מחזירו למוטב.
Definitely the culture of rigidness, of idolizing 'Daas Torah' of people who just happen to have certain position due to familial background and have little real-life experience etc. is a problem but this shouldn't detract from appreciating the core of a culture which has such a high success rate in so many areas.
But this post seems to say the opposite: Let us stop focusing on the core culture of Judaism and just sing about brotherly love. Sorry, I can't go for that.
Vapid brotherly love would actually be a step up. השם יתברך תמיד אוהב אותי is literally an ode to narcissism. Maybe this is the right message for a very intellectual, extremely pious person prone to self-criticism and depression (though maybe not because it doesn't seem R. Nahman of Breslev ever cured himself), but for your average Middle Easterner it's just a total disaster.
Lol. Wonder what you would say to כל העולם נברא בשבילי had it been written by someone contemporary
Yeah. It would be pretty bad chinuch if you made that into a synth pop song and got kids to sing it. The gemara also says וכל מי שאין בו דעה אסור לרחם עליו, but we don't encourage children to sing that on the bus either.
Haha.
Wonder what you would say to this conversation
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/how-to-relate-to-nonbelievers/comment/81045640
These guys are like Berel Wein says: “Gimme the ol’ time apikorsim”. They ain’t no bums. They’re the Chaim Bialiks of our times. Still….I’m sad.
To clarify, you’re not saying that these people “should” care about the culture, but rather that the community should create a culture that people actually care about because you feel the culture is beautiful. Is that accurate?
Yes. Precisely. Or more accurately, since the Torahs culture is beautiful (and as I believe divine) if people aren't feeling that way we are doing something wrong.
Do you think beauty is objective? Maybe even if everyone is doing it right, some people just don’t find it beautiful?
I believe divine beauty should be objective, yes.
What do you mean by divine beauty? Acting in a Torah lifestyle is beautiful in a way that everyone must find it beautiful?
I know it when I see it I guess?
https://thebentorah.substack.com/p/pepperoni-pizza-and-lakewood-off/comment/80948326
I think the pressure to conform and consequences for not conforming makes this very impossible for people in this situation to not feel completely stifled by Yiddishkeit
This article saddens me more than Exit 98's does.
Imagine promoting Torah, but not as Hashem's Torah, rather as something Jews do! This degrades the whole idea of Torah to something similar to zoroastrianism.
Cha"v! I never meant to say that. It is definitely Hashem's Torah. My point is that is taught as magic rules rather than a coherent system and a life path. I should bez'h make a post on that.
The Rambam enumerates thirteen basic beliefs. These are necessary to follow Torah, without them, all mitzvos are simply animal actions. Eating an enjoyable cracker in the spring is not a mitzvah unless a person accepts the thirteen beliefs.
None of these include chassidus or any coherent system. Reward and punishment are necessary beliefs; if a person does not believe that he will be rewarded for his matzos and punished for eating on Yom Kippur, his eating and fasting are meaningless - מתעסק in Halachic parlance. Belief in a unified life's system, while possibly true, is not essential.
Certainly. But it is funny you quote the rambam, because the Moreh is pretty much all about making yiddishkeit a unified belief system.
It is a unified system, but the unified system should not be necessary to keep mitzvos.
That's my point.
Sadly, some people go around announcing their superiority (also known as ביטול היש) by putting down those who keep mitzvos out of fear of geihenom and a wish to increase 'brownie points' in Gan Eden. I was addressing them.
It is necessary. As the Rambam writes, it is a chillul Hashem to think Hashem just wants us to do random acts.
Added an update to emphasize that.
Your description of Judaism as a bastion of monotheism is great, but what is the point of all of the rules? Is there a destination to where we are headed or is it just to be an island of monotheism amongst the depraved hellensits?
There is much more to Judaism than anything that any graduate (even the frummest) of any school of Lakewood can articulate. Unfortunately the culture is one that decries the study of any chassidus which would actually allow them the ability to understand what is the purpose of creation and the Jewish people's role in that.
The thing that I took away from that sad post was just how boring these individual's life's seem to be, other than that Pinny guy they're lives seem underwhelming and boring as in they're not grappling with existential profound philosophical religous issues nor do they seem to be doing anything particularly exciting or adventurous. Instead they're just existing in the fringes of frum society and....eating pepperoni pizza and smoking weed. Like if you're gonna leave Jewish observance and community than at least do something interesting.
I like Lana del ray more than those awful niggum. Ugh. I like most anything better than niggum. So tedious those niggum
The point you’re missing is that the rejection first and primarily comes from their communities and families. Driving on Shabbos even once can result in your children being expelled from school. It’s a two way street.
Nice post. I appreciate your attempts at being דן לכף זכות us for having left. I do think you kind of misread the reasons some if us went off.
Judaism is not just a culture. It is a set of laws delineated in the shulchan aruch AND a collection of random societal rules that you cannot break without being seen as less than everyone else. This translates into problems getting your kids into school, job security, and familial estrangement. There's a reason these guys and gals are in hiding. A welcoming culture does not create this environment.
So when someone starts having questions about the veracity of the stories they were brought up on, they very quickly get shut down, gaslit, and shot down.
This is true is Israel too, by the way. True, there are communities that are welcoming of non religious people. That is not a reflection at all about the reality of the charedi world in Israel.
About your point of Judaism being beautiful, what's beautiful about it? Your reasons are either vague or circular. The fact that Judaism taught monotheism to the world is both untrue (Zoroastrianism did) and dependant on it being true which is something we can question. If it wasn't questionable there would be no emuna. If it isn't true, where's the beauty?
Also, how is fasting on Yom Kippur without believing it because "that's what Jews do" any more beautiful than "because that's what god said"?
The basis of Judaism is free choice. Ultra Orthodox Jews take that away. You are ALL off the derech.
I think you may have misread my post. I am not in any way claiming that the reason why they (you?) left is because it wasn't beautiful enough. I never even touched on that. I was saying precisely your point - the lack of nostalgia for their faith shows that us frum people aren't doing a good job living it. I should write another post clarifying my intent as you and several others have misread me, but I think it's almost a kneejerk reaction due to the gaslighting most OTD people have faced. (I've been gaslit too, many times.)
Yeah I get what you meant, and you sounded completely sincere. I wasn't clear. I mean that the facts are that the halachic texts don't agree with you. מורידים ולא מעלין is one example.
First of all, Zoroastrianism is a dualistic religion and evidence for it's direct influence on the ethical monotheism of the ancient Judeans of biblical times is non existent. Second, for most of Jewish history, Judaism was mostly cultural and mimetic. That is, it was experienced by Jews through in their proximity to the ghetto, shtetl, enclave etc and it developed and was practiced organically. This overly legalistic
description of Judaism leads to an all or nothing attitude towards Judaism that in my experience many OTD folks seem to have.