I've never been to a modox yeshiva so I can't really say if my experiences in The Yeshiva has similarities, although I've heard some, like KBY, can have a lot of similar pressure.
If you're going to go to yeshiva, just do your research before choosing one!
And Ash - regarding your question in your footnote. Where were my parents? It's not that they were absent. It's that they were explicitly excluded and invalidated. They were told that the rabbis know better than them what's right for me. My mom would ask the rebbeim what's going on and they wouldn't be available for her. She's a woman. She's not even allowed to learn gemara, let alone enter the beis medrash. She's completely barred from that sphere. They'd make excuses when she finally reached them and said that I was fine, that everything was great. They gaslit her and she believed them because she was trained her whole life to trust these rabbis.
For worried parents - my mom recently gave me a great litmus test to see if you can entrust your child to a yeshiva: If they give you their cell phone number, and they are available if you ever feel like something is wrong then you can send your child. If you have no access to your child while they're there, and no way to communicate with these rabbis who are having the biggest influence on his life at this time then stay far far away.
I don't know if this is true in the yeshivish system, but many of the yeshivos in the modox world have psychologists/social workers on staff, and at least at the yeshiva I learned and later taught in, one of the things they look out for and is discussed at staff/rebbeim meetings is whether guys are getting too intense and need hadracha to moderate themselves in a healthy way. That's not to say guys don't get into learning in an intense way; they do, putting in many extra hours beyond the regular schedule. But there are people checking in with them to make sure their self-image and sense of balance is intact
What about your father? If you were living in the kollel housing that is on the Yeshiva's campus he couldn't possibly have been so in the dark about what was going on with you Or even so clueless about the dark side of that Yeshiva. Even most of the strongest supporters of that Yeshiva that I know. if they were there for long enough. don't deny it's potential for damage and that it damaged some. How could your father not have noticed? I'm asking this out of genuine wanting to understand, not to challenge you.
this is why you're not otd despite your strong questions, because usually what it boils down to is emotions (of course the are some exceptions but let's be honest)
I don't want to put words in Ash's mouth, but he's said many times that its also due to social conditions such as the fact that he was already married etc., and I think for those of us who like the system just have questions, such factors are more influential than emotions. What do you think @Ash
I don't think my answers are due to social conditions. I do think the motivation to push through to find them were.
As you know I attempt to be as intellectually honest as possible and I am convinced that my interpretation of the Torah is correct and not merely apologetics.
Ofc, I did not mean to accuse you of being dishonest (or did I?). I was just commenting about the social factors which undeniably contribute to my, your, and everyone's journeys.
This is one of your best posts. You post all kinds of opinions, etc., and points of view, but it’s refreshing just to hear your own experience, your honesty: you enjoyed it. I have a MO yeshiva near my house. We sometimes go there for guests who keep second days of Yom Tov. Those boys look like they’re having a great time, and some of their Rabbanim are Chareidi.
Broadly agree, but it really depends on which Yeshiva. People need to do their due diligence.
I went to 4 different ones which offered vastly different experiences, some very positive, some less so. None of them aligned directly with YA's, but we're problematic for different reasons.
As for parents, it's not that simple. There are places that work hard to distance bachurim from their parents by bombarding them with all sorts of propaganda.
It's amazing how kosher Tri-K and even Cholov Stam feel to me now. If I think I’m eating something non-kosher but see a Tri-K certification, I feel no rebellion at all, years of studying halacha, realizing the combination of extreme chumras and widespread ignorance, have shown me it’s truly kosher. Yes, even non-Glatt meat is kosher, I spent plenty of time on Yoreh Deah, Chapter 39.
Same feeling with Jewish music.
After being exposed to non-Jewish music, I now see just how kosher, insular, and singularly focused Jewish music really is. It's almost shocking to me that some rabbis condemn certain Jewish songs as "non-Jewish." In truth, their themes are entirely rooted in Judaism. Even if the style is more modern, the content remains deeply Jewish and promotes Jewish identity and belief in a very strong way that permeates the subconscious of all believers.
This baffles me. I'm a total outsider to the yeshivish system, but speaking for the yeshivos i learned in, there was no need to dismiss what my rebbeim were saying as BS or propaganda that people who grew up in the right contexts were able to see through and ignore and the poor nebs who didn't know better experienced what YA wrote about. My rebbeim spoke about the importance of talmud torah as a centerpiece and linchpin of one's broader avodas Hashem, a person's time in yeshiva as an opportunity to maximize one's learning at the expense of other pursuits which have value in the proper time and context, the importance of continuing to learn seriously even after yeshiva, etc. I didn't need to apply my own sechel to disregard or downplay what they were saying; i was able to take them at their word.
If one's rebbeim are meant to be the morei derech for a person's life, what does it mean that the messages they're conveying should be dismissed or downplayed 'with sechel'?
And it's obvious you are a total outsider and unaware to its culture. It's a good thing you didn't go to YA's yeshiva, because you would be the exact type of bochur who would have been harmed.
In Yeshiva, what is often repeated is a story attributed to R Ahron Kotler that one who saves a life while learning will be chayav for bitul Torah because while he is mechuyav to save a life he shouldnt have looked up from the Gemara to notice the person dying.
That's hyperbole that of someone takes literally he's in trouble.
i never called it BS or propaganda. the point is that while the system works for many people (it worked for me to a "t"), there are many - many - people who don't fit into the neat box the system is laid out for. probably the majority fit into the box, but a strong minority doesn't. and more like a 30-40%, not just a 5-10% (to varying degrees obviously; many of those 30-40% just need some TLC). that is when there needs to be sechel and active guidance to deal with these "outliers". also i'll add, anyone who has any sort of complications in their lives will often need sechel to navigate instead of letting the system run its course.
unfortunately many rabbeim are worse than ill-equipped in these matters and either shove the system down the throat of these boys or try new things with no experience. (i happen to think that there is a maalah to these rabbeim being in charge because they live the system and allow it to run best as the insular environment it needs to be, so even though it has its down sides, it also has its huge upsides, despite my constant "bashing" of rabbeim who never "grew up".) YA's yeshiva experience isn't normal as i expressed in a comment on his post, but the idea of pushing the agenda with no human sechel behind is a big problem which manifests all over with a lot of people
Got it, thanks for explaining. Ash used BS and propaganda in the context of contextualizing the emphasis placed on learning, saying people raised in the right environments know not to take that so seriously/what to dismiss. I thought you were basically agreeing with his take but framing it as using one's sechel to know which parts of the system to dismiss or downplay.
Well he believes the world is definitely billions of years old and anyone who thinks otherwise is a propagandist. I hear that mehalech strongly, but besides that it's definitely not a given, it's not the place of a yeshiva to introduce doubts, and not introducing doubts is not propaganda imo.
I learned in a yeshiva that was full of sechel and I never had any issues. My question to you and those who shared your experience (though I'm scared to ask it) is what happens to respect for Rabbeim? I don't mean, ooh you better respect them. I mean I can't imagine living as a ben Torah without having Rabbeim to respect. Yes, I eventually "outgrew" many of my Rabbeim whose Torah lacked sophistication, and I adjusted the scope of my respect for some whose greatness did not extend to areas I believe are important. But others, some sadly no longer living, continue to represent for me what Torah actually is. Without them as an essential part of my growth and identity, I can't imagine having any sense of how Torah is both categorically bigger than me and beyond me and yet truly available to me at the same time. If surviving yeshiva means filtering out the nonsense coming from Rabbeim, r"l, how can you be left with the towering role models who are so essential to a successful Torah way of life? Do you have people in your world like that? If not, how do you manage? Do you just cruise through life the best you can?
I'm terrified of posting this in case it hits home. I believe there are solutions and options and even a possible eschetological silver lining of sorts. Ash? Anyone else? What are your thoughts?
I've never been to a modox yeshiva so I can't really say if my experiences in The Yeshiva has similarities, although I've heard some, like KBY, can have a lot of similar pressure.
If you're going to go to yeshiva, just do your research before choosing one!
And Ash - regarding your question in your footnote. Where were my parents? It's not that they were absent. It's that they were explicitly excluded and invalidated. They were told that the rabbis know better than them what's right for me. My mom would ask the rebbeim what's going on and they wouldn't be available for her. She's a woman. She's not even allowed to learn gemara, let alone enter the beis medrash. She's completely barred from that sphere. They'd make excuses when she finally reached them and said that I was fine, that everything was great. They gaslit her and she believed them because she was trained her whole life to trust these rabbis.
For worried parents - my mom recently gave me a great litmus test to see if you can entrust your child to a yeshiva: If they give you their cell phone number, and they are available if you ever feel like something is wrong then you can send your child. If you have no access to your child while they're there, and no way to communicate with these rabbis who are having the biggest influence on his life at this time then stay far far away.
That's good advice.
I don't know if this is true in the yeshivish system, but many of the yeshivos in the modox world have psychologists/social workers on staff, and at least at the yeshiva I learned and later taught in, one of the things they look out for and is discussed at staff/rebbeim meetings is whether guys are getting too intense and need hadracha to moderate themselves in a healthy way. That's not to say guys don't get into learning in an intense way; they do, putting in many extra hours beyond the regular schedule. But there are people checking in with them to make sure their self-image and sense of balance is intact
What about your father? If you were living in the kollel housing that is on the Yeshiva's campus he couldn't possibly have been so in the dark about what was going on with you Or even so clueless about the dark side of that Yeshiva. Even most of the strongest supporters of that Yeshiva that I know. if they were there for long enough. don't deny it's potential for damage and that it damaged some. How could your father not have noticed? I'm asking this out of genuine wanting to understand, not to challenge you.
Honestly, good questions. I don't know
this is why you're not otd despite your strong questions, because usually what it boils down to is emotions (of course the are some exceptions but let's be honest)
I don't want to put words in Ash's mouth, but he's said many times that its also due to social conditions such as the fact that he was already married etc., and I think for those of us who like the system just have questions, such factors are more influential than emotions. What do you think @Ash
I don't think my answers are due to social conditions. I do think the motivation to push through to find them were.
As you know I attempt to be as intellectually honest as possible and I am convinced that my interpretation of the Torah is correct and not merely apologetics.
Ofc, I did not mean to accuse you of being dishonest (or did I?). I was just commenting about the social factors which undeniably contribute to my, your, and everyone's journeys.
Maybe you did. I dunno
You may be one of the exceptions.
This is one of your best posts. You post all kinds of opinions, etc., and points of view, but it’s refreshing just to hear your own experience, your honesty: you enjoyed it. I have a MO yeshiva near my house. We sometimes go there for guests who keep second days of Yom Tov. Those boys look like they’re having a great time, and some of their Rabbanim are Chareidi.
Broadly agree, but it really depends on which Yeshiva. People need to do their due diligence.
I went to 4 different ones which offered vastly different experiences, some very positive, some less so. None of them aligned directly with YA's, but we're problematic for different reasons.
As for parents, it's not that simple. There are places that work hard to distance bachurim from their parents by bombarding them with all sorts of propaganda.
Scary how powerful words are.
> stop eating those Triangle-K chalav stam Funyons
Lol. Is the problem that it's Triangle-K or that it's chalav stam? Because "chalav stam" implies that it's kosher (according to many major poskim).
I eat chalav stam but not tri k. It's just meant to be funny
But why not eat Triangle K?
It's amazing how kosher Tri-K and even Cholov Stam feel to me now. If I think I’m eating something non-kosher but see a Tri-K certification, I feel no rebellion at all, years of studying halacha, realizing the combination of extreme chumras and widespread ignorance, have shown me it’s truly kosher. Yes, even non-Glatt meat is kosher, I spent plenty of time on Yoreh Deah, Chapter 39.
Same feeling with Jewish music.
After being exposed to non-Jewish music, I now see just how kosher, insular, and singularly focused Jewish music really is. It's almost shocking to me that some rabbis condemn certain Jewish songs as "non-Jewish." In truth, their themes are entirely rooted in Judaism. Even if the style is more modern, the content remains deeply Jewish and promotes Jewish identity and belief in a very strong way that permeates the subconscious of all believers.
I love that your position is "the system is great for the people who don't follow the system."
That's not really it. The system is great with sechel is the way I'd put it.
Which is true with any "system"
This baffles me. I'm a total outsider to the yeshivish system, but speaking for the yeshivos i learned in, there was no need to dismiss what my rebbeim were saying as BS or propaganda that people who grew up in the right contexts were able to see through and ignore and the poor nebs who didn't know better experienced what YA wrote about. My rebbeim spoke about the importance of talmud torah as a centerpiece and linchpin of one's broader avodas Hashem, a person's time in yeshiva as an opportunity to maximize one's learning at the expense of other pursuits which have value in the proper time and context, the importance of continuing to learn seriously even after yeshiva, etc. I didn't need to apply my own sechel to disregard or downplay what they were saying; i was able to take them at their word.
If one's rebbeim are meant to be the morei derech for a person's life, what does it mean that the messages they're conveying should be dismissed or downplayed 'with sechel'?
And it's obvious you are a total outsider and unaware to its culture. It's a good thing you didn't go to YA's yeshiva, because you would be the exact type of bochur who would have been harmed.
In Yeshiva, what is often repeated is a story attributed to R Ahron Kotler that one who saves a life while learning will be chayav for bitul Torah because while he is mechuyav to save a life he shouldnt have looked up from the Gemara to notice the person dying.
That's hyperbole that of someone takes literally he's in trouble.
i never called it BS or propaganda. the point is that while the system works for many people (it worked for me to a "t"), there are many - many - people who don't fit into the neat box the system is laid out for. probably the majority fit into the box, but a strong minority doesn't. and more like a 30-40%, not just a 5-10% (to varying degrees obviously; many of those 30-40% just need some TLC). that is when there needs to be sechel and active guidance to deal with these "outliers". also i'll add, anyone who has any sort of complications in their lives will often need sechel to navigate instead of letting the system run its course.
unfortunately many rabbeim are worse than ill-equipped in these matters and either shove the system down the throat of these boys or try new things with no experience. (i happen to think that there is a maalah to these rabbeim being in charge because they live the system and allow it to run best as the insular environment it needs to be, so even though it has its down sides, it also has its huge upsides, despite my constant "bashing" of rabbeim who never "grew up".) YA's yeshiva experience isn't normal as i expressed in a comment on his post, but the idea of pushing the agenda with no human sechel behind is a big problem which manifests all over with a lot of people
Got it, thanks for explaining. Ash used BS and propaganda in the context of contextualizing the emphasis placed on learning, saying people raised in the right environments know not to take that so seriously/what to dismiss. I thought you were basically agreeing with his take but framing it as using one's sechel to know which parts of the system to dismiss or downplay.
Well he believes the world is definitely billions of years old and anyone who thinks otherwise is a propagandist. I hear that mehalech strongly, but besides that it's definitely not a given, it's not the place of a yeshiva to introduce doubts, and not introducing doubts is not propaganda imo.
Propaganda was not referring to that but to the emphasis that nothing else is of importance besides Torah.
I learned in a yeshiva that was full of sechel and I never had any issues. My question to you and those who shared your experience (though I'm scared to ask it) is what happens to respect for Rabbeim? I don't mean, ooh you better respect them. I mean I can't imagine living as a ben Torah without having Rabbeim to respect. Yes, I eventually "outgrew" many of my Rabbeim whose Torah lacked sophistication, and I adjusted the scope of my respect for some whose greatness did not extend to areas I believe are important. But others, some sadly no longer living, continue to represent for me what Torah actually is. Without them as an essential part of my growth and identity, I can't imagine having any sense of how Torah is both categorically bigger than me and beyond me and yet truly available to me at the same time. If surviving yeshiva means filtering out the nonsense coming from Rabbeim, r"l, how can you be left with the towering role models who are so essential to a successful Torah way of life? Do you have people in your world like that? If not, how do you manage? Do you just cruise through life the best you can?
I'm terrified of posting this in case it hits home. I believe there are solutions and options and even a possible eschetological silver lining of sorts. Ash? Anyone else? What are your thoughts?
Going on Sunday!