“Many people have left religion because in their learning and spiritual perfection, they have betrayed their unique personalities.”
---
“There is a great diversity of wisdom that expands even greater than this. One may be strongly attracted to a certain secular wisdom. Such a person must also follow his unique talents, while setting aside fixed time for learning Torah. If he does this, then he will succeed in both, because ‘Torah together with the ways of the world is beautiful’ (Pirkei Avot 2:2).”
See https://www.kotzkblog.com/2018 - he provided those English quotes (and more) in that piece. It has a slightly different angle, but it touches on some of the same themes as this essay.
-When I was in fourth year beis medrash my Rosh Yeshiva asked me to stay another Zman before I go to Erez Yisroel because he thought it would be good for me and the younger bochrim. I protested and said that all my friends were going to EY! He replied mockingly “you want a social life!”
-When I was a Choson, both my kallah and my father asked me if I planned to learn in a way that would lead to a parnassa, so I went to ask my Rebbe and he made a face and said “what, I didn’t hear you.” I repeated my question and he said again “what, I didn’t hear you.”
-When I was in EY we were discouraged from doing anything extracurricular. I still remember a shmuz we got where the RY claimed that he knows everything we do because he goes through every pocket of our suit cases and he’s found receipts from guys who went out to Geula at night to get an ice coffee!
-I remember during a shmuz he said something along the lines that nothing will come of the guys who use Motzai Shabbos to learn things other than the yeshivas masechta. I used to learn Halacha and I started feeling guilty about it till I finally acquiesced..
My experiences may be on the extreme side, and I’m probably also more on the sensitive side, but there are many guys like me who either somehow turn out normal and internalize the messages in a healthy way, or some really get hurt from it. I’m very far from where I once was religiously, and I have no problem with that, but I still live with the feeling that nothing in life matters other than Torah, and since I have very little interest in learning, I’m left with very little meaning in life.
You're a million percent right. These yeshivas are toxic. One of the biggest culture shocks to me going from one of these alef-tier yeshivas to modern orthodoxy was that people actually had personal interests and were encouraged to pursue them without being a bad person for bittul Torah.
I'm not advocating for Yeshivos to go full modern Orthodox. What I am advocating for is that besides for acknowledging the primary importance of Torah, other things should be recognized as having secondary importance, but importance nonetheless. Nuance goes a long way.
Phenomenal write-up! We would all be a little less broken if our rebbeim treated us like that story with Rabbi Kalish. I have a passion for cooking, and when I was a lonely searching 20 year old bachur, I told the hanhallah that i wanted to sign up for a twice a week night program cooking course - I was a top guy and learning all day and I promised to make up any lost time and keep it on the down so none of the younger would find out,etc., - but I desperately needed an outlet that wasn't just walking to the dorm and back to the nais midrash. They told me on no uncertain terms, that if I signed up I would be kicked out of yeshiva.
(Jokes on them - because cooking was off the table, but I was going to stir crazy without some sort of hobby, I bought myself a netbook and used my nights to learn how to write - and eventually use my writing talents to add to the OTD blogverse.)
Cooking is a great example of this. It's not a rock concert - and I don't expect any yeshiva to allow a rock concert - but it's a kosher outlet that should be encouraged by the hanhala.
I personally had a hobby that when I switched to a more meikel yeshiva I started missing every third night Seder for (without permission). I can vouch that it kept me sane.
I fully agree. The "only torah is important" idea comes mostly from sources comparing it to mitzvos and is basically taken on authority "you are accomplishing much more heavenly points". I think that the real explanation is based on the difference between religion and spirituality. Mitzvos are the support of the religious structure and fundamentally support indoctrination and conformism. It's similar to paying taxes so the central government can build infrastructure and communal structure. Torah is the actual focus on the fundamental values that underlie religion, ethics morals and the true connection with God. That is the road of spiritual growth and true personal evolution. Unfortunately dogmatism is the opposite of spirituality and transformed Torah study into a shell of abstract book learning, essentially just another mitzva. Investing in personal growth with the right intention IS the true path of Torah and ignoring it is a disaster.
Quite frankly, in a deleted post, you called me a troll
First of, R Slifkin knows my real name and we have communicated many times in the past
Second, you clearly have jumped to conclusions.
I have no desire for people to see the light of the Chareidi community. It's laughable to suggest it. I have a problem with R Slikfins tone which you can see because that's what I freaking wrote! Imputing motivations to others is poor character. I would write the same should he be constantly posting about Black people as well.
This is the question most likely to express the misunderstanding this entire article represents.
A Yeshiva is the foundation of life. It is not life. With a few years of singleminded devotion to understanding Torah, you are equipped to continue and cook, sculpt, play the guitar, or read contracts, without neglecting Torah. When people don't know what Torah learning is, they cannot fully actualize a Torah life. They can grasp onto some parts of it, but the ability to live a Torah life must be based on a few years of in-depth Torah learning.
None of the writers here, presumably, would allow a five-year old to cook as he pleases, because he has a talent. He can first learn other things, and develop his talents as he grows older.
Some commenters here claimed that the RYs are telling people not to cook. I explained that they are not, rather they are telling them to push other things, besides learning, off.
I didn't say that one cannot learn full time and also cook.
I also didn't talk about learning full time. That is another misrepresentation of my words. Read them, I didn't mention full time learning. That is not the point. It is full time dedication to learning, singleminded devotion to understanding Torah. They are not the same.
If you think your dedication to your job is similar to the dedication that the Yeshivos wish to teach, you have missed the boat again.
You are somewhat dedicated to your job, the ultimate Yeshiva bochur is fully dedicated. I don't mean those who unhealthily drive themselves past their capabilities. I am talking about those bochurim who continue their discussions at meals, who wake up in the morning dreaming about a kashe, and whose happiness is measured by their clarity in a Sugya. Not all reach it, but all are aware that is the goal.
Redefining the word 'total' or 'fully' will not help you understand.
And I am telling you, that except for a miniscule minority of bochrim, such a level of prishus is psychologically unhealthy and should never be a goal.
I never got the memo to simply push off anything else besides for learning off, I was taught that nothing else matters and is a waste of time other than learning. I think the article was being too generous to the yeshiva system and my experience was a lot worse.
A bunch of knuckleheads, who didn't understand what they were taught, are complaining that the Rebbeim were knuckleheads.
If people only understand that which is spelled out in baby language, they are anyway hopeless. Spelling it out so that those who can understand lose out, is not the solution.
The funny part is, you all got older and decided that the Rebbe got it wrong. You once believed a certain way, and now you understand differently. Instead of understanding that this is part of the process of growing up, and you are not supposed to understand at 19 what you understand at 27, you decided to Ctrl Z your 17 year old self. Of course, instead of doing it to yourself, you transferred the blame to the Rosh Yeshiva, Rebbe, or Mashgiach.
If you have the ability to discount the words of the Rebbe, why can't you merely qualify it? It was correct for a 19 year old, not a 27 year old. Why is that so difficult to accept?
What's your agenda here? Why are you so convinced Yeshivos are perfect? Will it be ground shaking to you that R Shach may not have exactly understood the American bochur or youth in general?
Sorry that is not what the RY are saying. They are saying that doing anything other than Torah is a waste of time. The message is that someone who leaves learning at the age of 30 to do anything else is a loser and is throwing away his life. He is a nebach who had to leave learning.
If you didn't understand the message, there may be something wrong with you, not the RY.
They don't discuss the future, because the purpose is to be a bubble of learning, with no future, outside world, or anything other than Torah. There is no discussion of post-Yeshiva years.
He isn't supposed to get the message at 14. He is supposed to realize that as he grows older, his understanding should grow. A 25 year old can understand the message behind the message he heard at 14. You were willing to criticize it, but refuse to understand it. You grew up sufficiently to throw it out, but not to understand it better.
Ha. I was in a "yeshiva" where the RY banned the zman magazine and every outlet so the yeshiva should be the bubble you describe. Was it? Nope! Just a bunch of depressed bochrim who walked to Wawa to see the news. And the rosh yeshiva gave grumbling vaads about how disappointed he was that no one seemed to chap the importance of not being bored out of their freaking minds.
There is one tiny Yeshiva in Lakewood where that was possible. And people mostly know to keep away from that Yeshiva because the RY (a descendant of one of our greatest from a few generations ago) seems to be out to lunch. Not because he wishes to create the bubble, but because he doesn't realize that he isn't creating it if the bochurim just go to Wawa.
In my years in Yeshiva, things weren't banned. But they were looked down on. The message was ' C'mon! How does someone who is devoted to such a higher level of life lose themselves in street nonsense like a newspaper?' Even when the bochur does read nonsense like a newspaper, he knows that this is not who he is.
I think this post lightly touches on the real issue but doesn't get to the root of it. The real issue is not "Why don't yeshivos allow secular outlets?" but rather "Why does everybody have to be in yeshiva in the first place?" or maybe even more accurately "Why does everybody have to learn Gemara?"
The indisputable fact is that becoming a real talmid chacham requires deep *immersion* in Torah, and secular distractions will be very disruptive to that goal. That much is obvious to anybody who has not huffed the silly Modox propaganda about English literature leading to high levels of Avodas Hashem. Think about people in medical schools or residency. How many have the time to attend cooking classes twice a week, or go on long skiing vacations? The yeshivos in which we are trying to raise top talmidei chachamim should be less intense than this? (And before you ask, I agree that yeshivos should administer rigorous testing just like medical school.) It's true that there are some exceptional geniuses who are able to do both, but not nearly enough to satisfy our demand for talmidei chachamim. So the complaint about yeshivos prohibiting or discouraging secular distractions misses the purpose of a yeshiva, which is to offer an environment of total Torah immersion.
However, the problem is that not all of our bachurim have the inclination or capability to become talmidei chachamim! Most do not! So why do we insist that they attend an institution with such a purpose? Why are we pretending that they are something they are not? This is the real issue, and IYH I will write a follow-up comment addressing it
I would also add another point (and I expect you'd agree): medical school has a clear goal and aim. Every student knows what he is aiming for and the goals and responsibilities required. Most yeshivas are the opposite. There's no focused goal, and people feel unaccomplished.
My main point here is that the system for high Schools in my hometown is psychologically unhealthy. It is not ok for a thirteen year old to have no other interests besides learning. But that what is pushed as the ideal.
Capable? Shouldnt it depends if he wants to? It is unhealthy to demand a thirteen year old to focus on something they themselves do not want. Read the biographies of child stars and athletes.
By the time they are thirteen, most of the kids who are capable *want* intense learning. Maybe those who don't want don't belong in a yeshiva? Why do we insist that every bachur must attend a yeshiva?
I think the real problem is that the yeshiva system is not focused at all on the individual bachur in any shape, form or fashion, at least the Lakewood system.
I think it is delusional to think that the Lakewood system is about producing Talmidei Chachamim. As Reb Shmuel Kamenetzky once told someone "if you want to be a Tamid Chacham go to Ner Yisroel, if you want to be a yeshivaman come to Phili Yeshiva". I think that best defines the Lakewood 'yeshiva system'. Ash is pointing out that the way a ''yeshivaman' is defined is delusional for the average bachur, and perhaps even for all bachurim (based on my experience with the top bachurim from the 'top families' in my shiur in a top yeshiva).
I'm not sure about that. You don't think the yeshiva system produces more talmidei chachamim than the say the Modern Orthodox system? What's the alternative? Ner Yisrael is of course a yeshiva, and it produces many talmidei chachamim, and I can tell you the talmidei chachamim that it produces are those who are immersed in learning.
I don't think the Talmidei Chachamim out of Lakewood are better than the ones out of Brooklyn or Darchei, both of which have a healthier stance to extracurricular activities and secular studies.
I didn't say the yeshiva system doesn't 'produce more talmidei chachamim' than any other system. Where did you see that?
I said that the proximate goal of the 'Lakewood' yeshiva system is not to produce talmidei chachamim but rather to produce yeshivaleit (what Leib Shachar called the obedient ben torah). Certainly, being a yeshivaman can lead to being a talmid chacham. No one is denying that.
>Ner Yisrael is of course a yeshiva, and it produces many talmidei chachamim, and I can tell you the talmidei chachamim that it produces are those who are immersed in learning.
I don't know much about the lakewood yeshiva system but in the yeshivas I have been through, I don't know any rebbeim or RY who would *not* say that his goal was to produce talmidei chachamim. You're telling me that if you would ask the average RY in Lakewood if he is trying to produce talmidei chachamim, he would say no? There is probably some nuance to what you are saying that I am missing.
Come to think of it I'm not sure why you are so convinced that all of your RY would have said that their proximate goal is to create Talmidei Chachamim.
We've been discussing NY and Phili so I guess this anecdote is appropriate. When I was in yeshiva there was a rebbi in Phili who was a very close talmid of Rav Kulefsky zatsal להבחל"ח, Rav Perman. In his hesped on Rav Kulefsky given in NY he said that Rav Kulefsky was asked what the goal of his shiur. He said that the goal is that they at the end of the year they should have ahavas hatorah. (I think I am missing the full statement. It doesn't seem to be quoted in the book on Rav Kulefsky. Do you know if NY has a recording?) It seems to me that he was saying that his proximate goal is NOT to produce Talmidei Chachamim but rather to generate ahavas haTorah. I don't think that he considered his shiur a failure in any way if someone did not become a talmid chacham, as long as he grew in ahavas hatorah. In the book on Rav Kulefsky there is a story about someone who didn't learn for many years after he left yeshiva and finally returned to learn because of his fond memories from Rav Kulefsky's shiur.
I remember hearing a recording from Reb Yissocher Frand mentioning that many of those who come back to NY for Yarchei Kallah reminisce that the best days of their life were their yeshiva days. Is this not part of the yeshiva's goal, or perhaps its primary goal, to create the experience of אחת שאלתי מאת ה' שבתי בבית ה', so that for the rest of their life, no matter where it takes them, they will recognize that כל חפציך לא ישוו בה?
A rebbi of mine once addressed the question you asked. You said that a former talmid who attended college asked him why it is that the yeshiva doesn't give grueling tests as he has in colllege. I believe he gave 3 answers. I don't remember exactly what the answers were, but I am pretty sure that they were all different aspects of this idea; that a yeshiva is not a school, and its goal is not to acquire knowledge of a specific subject. The goal of a yeshiva is the experience of שבתי בבית ה'. (And before you ask, I do support the idea of having more testing and accountability for 'shteiging' in yeshivos, because I feel that without that one isn't truly learning Torah. And I do think that instilling ahavas haTorah should not be a contradiction to focused goals, as is often in the Lakewood system. The converse is true. And ahavas haTorah certainly does not require excluding everything but the RY's shiur.)
I would like to write more if I have time, but for now I am putting the onus on you to support your position.
I'm sorry I don't have evidence offhand to support my position (although I can vaguely wave in the direction of the letter from Rav Dessler who I think says the point of yeshiva is to produce Gedolim). I haven't been in yeshiva in a long time, I am just stating my impressions, which I am pretty sure are based on things I heard the RYs/mashgichim/rebbeim saying. I suppose I could ask a RY/rebbi explicitly although I am a bit embarrassed to do that. I did have a conversation over shabbos with a relative who is a shoel umayshiv in a yeshiva and asked him, why do we insist that everybody goes to yeshiva, it's clearly not for everybody, not everybody can learn or be taught how to learn. He idealistically vehemently disagreed telling me stories about bochurim who were very weak in high school but shteiged tremendously in the right environment in bais medrash. Of course I already know of such stories (I myself am somewhat of a story like that) but I am not quite convinced.
But you must know a one day trip on bein hazmanim is not a representative example. You must know that 99% of rebbeim would have no problem with this. So why are you using that example?
But you can't use a manifestation of that attitude that everybody agrees is crazy as an argument against the attitude! If we did that, I could say that Binyamin Zev Wolf or Slifkin proves that the desire for secular knowledge is a harmful attitude and should be prohibited!
If I told you the person behind the story, you would know why I quoted it. It is not a person looked at as crazy by any means. He was 100% sincere and is a noted mechanech who is often asked advice.
But whoever this person is, clearly his attitude of not allowing bachurim any bein hazmanim trips has not filtered into the general public. Most bachurim will go on bein hazmanim trips! So this is a non-representative attitude that doesn't strengthen your point.
I don’t agree. A boy of 16 , 17, 18 does not know whether he will be a gadol or not. Everyone should be in yeshiva, but everyone should be encouraged to develop other talents, not only because they are G-d given and should be used, but because they enhance the learning. Of course immersion is the ideal, , with some adornments on the side.
This is all very sad and antiquated. Rabbi Pesach Krohn encourages fathers to play basketball with their sons. He said once, “You’re worried he’ll join the NBA? Don’t worry: he’s short. He’s white. He’s fat.”
We live in a very frum neighborhood. My husband used to play basketball with our sons on the front patio. The menahel (who lived across the street) didn’t like the other kids who came into our yard. So my son was in 3rd grade, and he got kicked out of cheder.
Well, that was the best thing that ever happened to him. We sent the boys to a different cheder where they played soccer and basketball at recess (not so common in EY). As that son grew older he learned guitar, and he would go out at nights to play soccer and basketball. He also went on all kinds of trips with his friends (not outside of Israel).
He is in his 30’s, still in kollel, still playing guitar. He told me that when he got to yeshiva gedola guys were chalashing to play sports because they hadn’t played when they were younger. He still liked sports, but didn’t hunger for it.
Now there are all kinds of yeshivas in EY. It’s the Beis Yaakov I worry about. Still, with all of the problems, I feel that the system is the best we have. Things have changed, and they will continue to change.
Fascinating comment on the chabad approach:
https://x.com/RostovRabbi/status/1887661078206717959
Here is another approach you may find interesting: https://www.jewishideas.org/article/rabbi-yosef-hayyim-baghdad-religious-importance-general-and-jewish-studies
“Many people have left religion because in their learning and spiritual perfection, they have betrayed their unique personalities.”
---
“There is a great diversity of wisdom that expands even greater than this. One may be strongly attracted to a certain secular wisdom. Such a person must also follow his unique talents, while setting aside fixed time for learning Torah. If he does this, then he will succeed in both, because ‘Torah together with the ways of the world is beautiful’ (Pirkei Avot 2:2).”
From the writings of Rav Kook, zt"l
Where is this?
Love it!
See https://www.kotzkblog.com/2018 - he provided those English quotes (and more) in that piece. It has a slightly different angle, but it touches on some of the same themes as this essay.
Had a rebbi who forbade from learning how to play guitar because "guitars are for Rockstars...and you will end up like carlbach"
Mind you I was learning 6 hours every shabbos afternoon at the time.
How old were you at the time?
16
Here are some experiences that come to mind.
-When I was in fourth year beis medrash my Rosh Yeshiva asked me to stay another Zman before I go to Erez Yisroel because he thought it would be good for me and the younger bochrim. I protested and said that all my friends were going to EY! He replied mockingly “you want a social life!”
-When I was a Choson, both my kallah and my father asked me if I planned to learn in a way that would lead to a parnassa, so I went to ask my Rebbe and he made a face and said “what, I didn’t hear you.” I repeated my question and he said again “what, I didn’t hear you.”
-When I was in EY we were discouraged from doing anything extracurricular. I still remember a shmuz we got where the RY claimed that he knows everything we do because he goes through every pocket of our suit cases and he’s found receipts from guys who went out to Geula at night to get an ice coffee!
-I remember during a shmuz he said something along the lines that nothing will come of the guys who use Motzai Shabbos to learn things other than the yeshivas masechta. I used to learn Halacha and I started feeling guilty about it till I finally acquiesced..
My experiences may be on the extreme side, and I’m probably also more on the sensitive side, but there are many guys like me who either somehow turn out normal and internalize the messages in a healthy way, or some really get hurt from it. I’m very far from where I once was religiously, and I have no problem with that, but I still live with the feeling that nothing in life matters other than Torah, and since I have very little interest in learning, I’m left with very little meaning in life.
I am sorry you had to grow that.
consider therapy...do not let bad representatives of the torah poison it for you.
You're a million percent right. These yeshivas are toxic. One of the biggest culture shocks to me going from one of these alef-tier yeshivas to modern orthodoxy was that people actually had personal interests and were encouraged to pursue them without being a bad person for bittul Torah.
I'm not advocating for Yeshivos to go full modern Orthodox. What I am advocating for is that besides for acknowledging the primary importance of Torah, other things should be recognized as having secondary importance, but importance nonetheless. Nuance goes a long way.
Phenomenal write-up! We would all be a little less broken if our rebbeim treated us like that story with Rabbi Kalish. I have a passion for cooking, and when I was a lonely searching 20 year old bachur, I told the hanhallah that i wanted to sign up for a twice a week night program cooking course - I was a top guy and learning all day and I promised to make up any lost time and keep it on the down so none of the younger would find out,etc., - but I desperately needed an outlet that wasn't just walking to the dorm and back to the nais midrash. They told me on no uncertain terms, that if I signed up I would be kicked out of yeshiva.
(Jokes on them - because cooking was off the table, but I was going to stir crazy without some sort of hobby, I bought myself a netbook and used my nights to learn how to write - and eventually use my writing talents to add to the OTD blogverse.)
Cooking is a great example of this. It's not a rock concert - and I don't expect any yeshiva to allow a rock concert - but it's a kosher outlet that should be encouraged by the hanhala.
I personally had a hobby that when I switched to a more meikel yeshiva I started missing every third night Seder for (without permission). I can vouch that it kept me sane.
I fully agree. The "only torah is important" idea comes mostly from sources comparing it to mitzvos and is basically taken on authority "you are accomplishing much more heavenly points". I think that the real explanation is based on the difference between religion and spirituality. Mitzvos are the support of the religious structure and fundamentally support indoctrination and conformism. It's similar to paying taxes so the central government can build infrastructure and communal structure. Torah is the actual focus on the fundamental values that underlie religion, ethics morals and the true connection with God. That is the road of spiritual growth and true personal evolution. Unfortunately dogmatism is the opposite of spirituality and transformed Torah study into a shell of abstract book learning, essentially just another mitzva. Investing in personal growth with the right intention IS the true path of Torah and ignoring it is a disaster.
Wish this article (and Waterbury) had come out when my kids were in Yeshiva
Ash, I usually do not agree with you at all.
I couldn’t agree more with this post.
The pushing away the sense of self is the epitome of lakewood.
It’s why you see such hollowed dead expressions on so many.
It’s the reason it’s considered in, to be completely incapable of doing anything themselves…
Much longer article needs to dissect this negative phenomenon.
Quite a good start over here though…
Quite frankly, in a deleted post, you called me a troll
First of, R Slifkin knows my real name and we have communicated many times in the past
Second, you clearly have jumped to conclusions.
I have no desire for people to see the light of the Chareidi community. It's laughable to suggest it. I have a problem with R Slikfins tone which you can see because that's what I freaking wrote! Imputing motivations to others is poor character. I would write the same should he be constantly posting about Black people as well.
I definitely overreacted, this was before I came to appreciate your insight
Thank you!
Question: How often do you read me to know you "usually" don't agree with me?
I was once on a Wattsapp group, with the admin would post campaigns about once a week.
He would always preempt by saying we don’t normally post campaigns, but for this one…
Speaking of cognitive dissonance ….
Lol we are all guilty of the crimes we see others …
Why does hashem give people musical talent, artistic talent, the ability to work with their hands etc if all we are supposed to do is sit and learn?
Yetzer Hara to distract from learning? Just kidding.
I haven’t seen a better answer from anyone
This is the question most likely to express the misunderstanding this entire article represents.
A Yeshiva is the foundation of life. It is not life. With a few years of singleminded devotion to understanding Torah, you are equipped to continue and cook, sculpt, play the guitar, or read contracts, without neglecting Torah. When people don't know what Torah learning is, they cannot fully actualize a Torah life. They can grasp onto some parts of it, but the ability to live a Torah life must be based on a few years of in-depth Torah learning.
None of the writers here, presumably, would allow a five-year old to cook as he pleases, because he has a talent. He can first learn other things, and develop his talents as he grows older.
Please explain why one cannot learn full time and also cook two times a week.
Are you intentionally being obtuse?
Some commenters here claimed that the RYs are telling people not to cook. I explained that they are not, rather they are telling them to push other things, besides learning, off.
I didn't say that one cannot learn full time and also cook.
I also didn't talk about learning full time. That is another misrepresentation of my words. Read them, I didn't mention full time learning. That is not the point. It is full time dedication to learning, singleminded devotion to understanding Torah. They are not the same.
That is not the message imparted in Yeshiva. You are being deliberately dishonest. The message imparted is one that leaves is a failure.
It's also a lie that full dedication to learning means one cannot value other outlets.
I am fully dedicated to my job as a social worker. I also have other outlets.
If you think your dedication to your job is similar to the dedication that the Yeshivos wish to teach, you have missed the boat again.
You are somewhat dedicated to your job, the ultimate Yeshiva bochur is fully dedicated. I don't mean those who unhealthily drive themselves past their capabilities. I am talking about those bochurim who continue their discussions at meals, who wake up in the morning dreaming about a kashe, and whose happiness is measured by their clarity in a Sugya. Not all reach it, but all are aware that is the goal.
Redefining the word 'total' or 'fully' will not help you understand.
And I am telling you, that except for a miniscule minority of bochrim, such a level of prishus is psychologically unhealthy and should never be a goal.
I never got the memo to simply push off anything else besides for learning off, I was taught that nothing else matters and is a waste of time other than learning. I think the article was being too generous to the yeshiva system and my experience was a lot worse.
A bunch of knuckleheads, who didn't understand what they were taught, are complaining that the Rebbeim were knuckleheads.
If people only understand that which is spelled out in baby language, they are anyway hopeless. Spelling it out so that those who can understand lose out, is not the solution.
The funny part is, you all got older and decided that the Rebbe got it wrong. You once believed a certain way, and now you understand differently. Instead of understanding that this is part of the process of growing up, and you are not supposed to understand at 19 what you understand at 27, you decided to Ctrl Z your 17 year old self. Of course, instead of doing it to yourself, you transferred the blame to the Rosh Yeshiva, Rebbe, or Mashgiach.
If you have the ability to discount the words of the Rebbe, why can't you merely qualify it? It was correct for a 19 year old, not a 27 year old. Why is that so difficult to accept?
What's your agenda here? Why are you so convinced Yeshivos are perfect? Will it be ground shaking to you that R Shach may not have exactly understood the American bochur or youth in general?
If that's the case that so many bochrim misunderstood, then the Rebbeim were teaching it wrong.
Glad we agree.
Sorry that is not what the RY are saying. They are saying that doing anything other than Torah is a waste of time. The message is that someone who leaves learning at the age of 30 to do anything else is a loser and is throwing away his life. He is a nebach who had to leave learning.
If you didn't understand the message, there may be something wrong with you, not the RY.
They don't discuss the future, because the purpose is to be a bubble of learning, with no future, outside world, or anything other than Torah. There is no discussion of post-Yeshiva years.
The reason for this is as I wrote above.
If a 14 year old didn't get the message, it's his fault.
Cool.
Another intentionally obtuse comment.
He isn't supposed to get the message at 14. He is supposed to realize that as he grows older, his understanding should grow. A 25 year old can understand the message behind the message he heard at 14. You were willing to criticize it, but refuse to understand it. You grew up sufficiently to throw it out, but not to understand it better.
I love how you are the only guy saying this, yet everyone else is obtuse. You were the one guy who saw the clear message that was never taught. Lol.
Or maybe you are imagining things.
Ha. I was in a "yeshiva" where the RY banned the zman magazine and every outlet so the yeshiva should be the bubble you describe. Was it? Nope! Just a bunch of depressed bochrim who walked to Wawa to see the news. And the rosh yeshiva gave grumbling vaads about how disappointed he was that no one seemed to chap the importance of not being bored out of their freaking minds.
There is one tiny Yeshiva in Lakewood where that was possible. And people mostly know to keep away from that Yeshiva because the RY (a descendant of one of our greatest from a few generations ago) seems to be out to lunch. Not because he wishes to create the bubble, but because he doesn't realize that he isn't creating it if the bochurim just go to Wawa.
In my years in Yeshiva, things weren't banned. But they were looked down on. The message was ' C'mon! How does someone who is devoted to such a higher level of life lose themselves in street nonsense like a newspaper?' Even when the bochur does read nonsense like a newspaper, he knows that this is not who he is.
You are gaslighting and engaging in apologetics.
So if most bochurim get the wrong message from their RY then its the bochurim's problem for misunderstanding?!
Nope.
It means other RY are either bad at communication or they actually believe that .
You intellectual dishonesty is mind blowing.
Now it became 'most' bochurim. What's the evidence? The disgruntled ones on the internet prove nothing.
And the 5 successful bochrim who open their own prove nothing either
You are so wrong. That is exactly what most of them are saying. I can hear and understand perfectly well.
R Shach must be rolling in his grave
https://www.kikar.co.il/singles-clips/srayhl
And how does that fit in with תלמוד תורה כנגד כולם that a persons only focus is to learn Torah?
thats a mistranslation
I know. It’s an expression
Mistakes? The only one I've made so far is not knowing where certain gedolim went to Mesivta. Yippee.
Oh and stop being disingenuous. You have been strawmanning me for some time, suddenly you read full sentences?
Full means the secular program learnt in maarava and other tichoni schools. With bagrut.
Not in Lakewood but whatever.
And looking down on newspapers is ok. On chess, secular wisdom, and kosher outlets it's not.
I think this post lightly touches on the real issue but doesn't get to the root of it. The real issue is not "Why don't yeshivos allow secular outlets?" but rather "Why does everybody have to be in yeshiva in the first place?" or maybe even more accurately "Why does everybody have to learn Gemara?"
The indisputable fact is that becoming a real talmid chacham requires deep *immersion* in Torah, and secular distractions will be very disruptive to that goal. That much is obvious to anybody who has not huffed the silly Modox propaganda about English literature leading to high levels of Avodas Hashem. Think about people in medical schools or residency. How many have the time to attend cooking classes twice a week, or go on long skiing vacations? The yeshivos in which we are trying to raise top talmidei chachamim should be less intense than this? (And before you ask, I agree that yeshivos should administer rigorous testing just like medical school.) It's true that there are some exceptional geniuses who are able to do both, but not nearly enough to satisfy our demand for talmidei chachamim. So the complaint about yeshivos prohibiting or discouraging secular distractions misses the purpose of a yeshiva, which is to offer an environment of total Torah immersion.
However, the problem is that not all of our bachurim have the inclination or capability to become talmidei chachamim! Most do not! So why do we insist that they attend an institution with such a purpose? Why are we pretending that they are something they are not? This is the real issue, and IYH I will write a follow-up comment addressing it
I would also add another point (and I expect you'd agree): medical school has a clear goal and aim. Every student knows what he is aiming for and the goals and responsibilities required. Most yeshivas are the opposite. There's no focused goal, and people feel unaccomplished.
So this is an argument for yeshivos (to the extent it's true, which is not so much, besides for the lack of exams) to have more focused goals.
Yes.
Waiting for your followup comment. Please address it toward mesivtos.
My main point here is that the system for high Schools in my hometown is psychologically unhealthy. It is not ok for a thirteen year old to have no other interests besides learning. But that what is pushed as the ideal.
Disagree. There's nothing unhealthy about it for a thirteen year old who is capable of it. The real problem is that most of them are not.
Capable? Shouldnt it depends if he wants to? It is unhealthy to demand a thirteen year old to focus on something they themselves do not want. Read the biographies of child stars and athletes.
By the time they are thirteen, most of the kids who are capable *want* intense learning. Maybe those who don't want don't belong in a yeshiva? Why do we insist that every bachur must attend a yeshiva?
As their only interest? Not usually.
I think the real problem is that the yeshiva system is not focused at all on the individual bachur in any shape, form or fashion, at least the Lakewood system.
I think it is delusional to think that the Lakewood system is about producing Talmidei Chachamim. As Reb Shmuel Kamenetzky once told someone "if you want to be a Tamid Chacham go to Ner Yisroel, if you want to be a yeshivaman come to Phili Yeshiva". I think that best defines the Lakewood 'yeshiva system'. Ash is pointing out that the way a ''yeshivaman' is defined is delusional for the average bachur, and perhaps even for all bachurim (based on my experience with the top bachurim from the 'top families' in my shiur in a top yeshiva).
I'm not sure about that. You don't think the yeshiva system produces more talmidei chachamim than the say the Modern Orthodox system? What's the alternative? Ner Yisrael is of course a yeshiva, and it produces many talmidei chachamim, and I can tell you the talmidei chachamim that it produces are those who are immersed in learning.
I don't think the Talmidei Chachamim out of Lakewood are better than the ones out of Brooklyn or Darchei, both of which have a healthier stance to extracurricular activities and secular studies.
Curious what you would respond to this.
https://intellectualshmaltz.substack.com/p/the-madda-behind-the-torah-curtain
I didn't say the yeshiva system doesn't 'produce more talmidei chachamim' than any other system. Where did you see that?
I said that the proximate goal of the 'Lakewood' yeshiva system is not to produce talmidei chachamim but rather to produce yeshivaleit (what Leib Shachar called the obedient ben torah). Certainly, being a yeshivaman can lead to being a talmid chacham. No one is denying that.
>Ner Yisrael is of course a yeshiva, and it produces many talmidei chachamim, and I can tell you the talmidei chachamim that it produces are those who are immersed in learning.
Did I write anything to the contrary?
I don't know much about the lakewood yeshiva system but in the yeshivas I have been through, I don't know any rebbeim or RY who would *not* say that his goal was to produce talmidei chachamim. You're telling me that if you would ask the average RY in Lakewood if he is trying to produce talmidei chachamim, he would say no? There is probably some nuance to what you are saying that I am missing.
Come to think of it I'm not sure why you are so convinced that all of your RY would have said that their proximate goal is to create Talmidei Chachamim.
We've been discussing NY and Phili so I guess this anecdote is appropriate. When I was in yeshiva there was a rebbi in Phili who was a very close talmid of Rav Kulefsky zatsal להבחל"ח, Rav Perman. In his hesped on Rav Kulefsky given in NY he said that Rav Kulefsky was asked what the goal of his shiur. He said that the goal is that they at the end of the year they should have ahavas hatorah. (I think I am missing the full statement. It doesn't seem to be quoted in the book on Rav Kulefsky. Do you know if NY has a recording?) It seems to me that he was saying that his proximate goal is NOT to produce Talmidei Chachamim but rather to generate ahavas haTorah. I don't think that he considered his shiur a failure in any way if someone did not become a talmid chacham, as long as he grew in ahavas hatorah. In the book on Rav Kulefsky there is a story about someone who didn't learn for many years after he left yeshiva and finally returned to learn because of his fond memories from Rav Kulefsky's shiur.
I remember hearing a recording from Reb Yissocher Frand mentioning that many of those who come back to NY for Yarchei Kallah reminisce that the best days of their life were their yeshiva days. Is this not part of the yeshiva's goal, or perhaps its primary goal, to create the experience of אחת שאלתי מאת ה' שבתי בבית ה', so that for the rest of their life, no matter where it takes them, they will recognize that כל חפציך לא ישוו בה?
A rebbi of mine once addressed the question you asked. You said that a former talmid who attended college asked him why it is that the yeshiva doesn't give grueling tests as he has in colllege. I believe he gave 3 answers. I don't remember exactly what the answers were, but I am pretty sure that they were all different aspects of this idea; that a yeshiva is not a school, and its goal is not to acquire knowledge of a specific subject. The goal of a yeshiva is the experience of שבתי בבית ה'. (And before you ask, I do support the idea of having more testing and accountability for 'shteiging' in yeshivos, because I feel that without that one isn't truly learning Torah. And I do think that instilling ahavas haTorah should not be a contradiction to focused goals, as is often in the Lakewood system. The converse is true. And ahavas haTorah certainly does not require excluding everything but the RY's shiur.)
I would like to write more if I have time, but for now I am putting the onus on you to support your position.
I'm sorry I don't have evidence offhand to support my position (although I can vaguely wave in the direction of the letter from Rav Dessler who I think says the point of yeshiva is to produce Gedolim). I haven't been in yeshiva in a long time, I am just stating my impressions, which I am pretty sure are based on things I heard the RYs/mashgichim/rebbeim saying. I suppose I could ask a RY/rebbi explicitly although I am a bit embarrassed to do that. I did have a conversation over shabbos with a relative who is a shoel umayshiv in a yeshiva and asked him, why do we insist that everybody goes to yeshiva, it's clearly not for everybody, not everybody can learn or be taught how to learn. He idealistically vehemently disagreed telling me stories about bochurim who were very weak in high school but shteiged tremendously in the right environment in bais medrash. Of course I already know of such stories (I myself am somewhat of a story like that) but I am not quite convinced.
I don't know exactly what the average RY would answer.
I will say that I think Reb Shmuel was being very forthright in stating the truth. Not everyone is on that level.
You are distorting the facts. It isn't a long skiing vacation, it was a one day trip the bochrim had off anyway.
And we don't send 13 year olds to medical school for a freaking reason! That's not an ok comparison.
This article is focused on mesivtas.
But you must know a one day trip on bein hazmanim is not a representative example. You must know that 99% of rebbeim would have no problem with this. So why are you using that example?
Because of the attitude behind it. It's way more common than you think.
But you can't use a manifestation of that attitude that everybody agrees is crazy as an argument against the attitude! If we did that, I could say that Binyamin Zev Wolf or Slifkin proves that the desire for secular knowledge is a harmful attitude and should be prohibited!
If I told you the person behind the story, you would know why I quoted it. It is not a person looked at as crazy by any means. He was 100% sincere and is a noted mechanech who is often asked advice.
But whoever this person is, clearly his attitude of not allowing bachurim any bein hazmanim trips has not filtered into the general public. Most bachurim will go on bein hazmanim trips! So this is a non-representative attitude that doesn't strengthen your point.
I don’t agree. A boy of 16 , 17, 18 does not know whether he will be a gadol or not. Everyone should be in yeshiva, but everyone should be encouraged to develop other talents, not only because they are G-d given and should be used, but because they enhance the learning. Of course immersion is the ideal, , with some adornments on the side.
This is all very sad and antiquated. Rabbi Pesach Krohn encourages fathers to play basketball with their sons. He said once, “You’re worried he’ll join the NBA? Don’t worry: he’s short. He’s white. He’s fat.”
We live in a very frum neighborhood. My husband used to play basketball with our sons on the front patio. The menahel (who lived across the street) didn’t like the other kids who came into our yard. So my son was in 3rd grade, and he got kicked out of cheder.
Well, that was the best thing that ever happened to him. We sent the boys to a different cheder where they played soccer and basketball at recess (not so common in EY). As that son grew older he learned guitar, and he would go out at nights to play soccer and basketball. He also went on all kinds of trips with his friends (not outside of Israel).
He is in his 30’s, still in kollel, still playing guitar. He told me that when he got to yeshiva gedola guys were chalashing to play sports because they hadn’t played when they were younger. He still liked sports, but didn’t hunger for it.
Now there are all kinds of yeshivas in EY. It’s the Beis Yaakov I worry about. Still, with all of the problems, I feel that the system is the best we have. Things have changed, and they will continue to change.
My son's modern charedi school has a football club. He loves it.
Super important to bring these stories to light