He may have been accidentally partially right about the ADHD meds tbh. If you don't already have decent (non-pharmaceutical) adhd coping/management skills, adderall can just cause you to hyperfixate on things you shouldn't be doing and make you even less functional IME.
Also, tolerance and dependence are real. The effects will become weaker and weaker if you use it every day, then you ask for a higher dose, then eventually you end up depending on it just to get out of bed. Personally I take adderall no more than once or twice a week. I wish I could have told this to my younger self. (Of course, I'm only one datapoint and my experience may or may not generalize)
Hey Dov Ber, the plural of anecdote is not data. You are a rationalist, you should know that.
Adderall really helped me in Yeshiva. When I grew older, I found that hyperfixation can happen, but I lowered my dose to avoid it. I am now completely off medication as I learned coping skills, but in that helll of yeshiva I needed it.
Either way, it was completely inappropriate for the RY to make that decision especially since at the time it was really helping.
Yes. The portrayal is excellent. I did feel though some of the acting could use some work, and the bochrims exploits, especially romantically, were really not authentic and felt out of touch.
"(I am convinced that this RY is not a narcissist, as he expressed firm compassion to his talmidim many times - but he learnt this mehalach from his rebbe, who in my opinion undoubtedly was)."
I'm curious as to whether you see the trend as things getting worse, getting better, or staying the same. My sense is that there are a lot less elementary school rebbeim with anger management problems and a penchant for cruelty than there were a generation ago. (I'm not talking about molesters. I wouldn't know about that since I assume it goes on behind closed doors when it happens. I'm talking about the petty tyrants who are notorious among people who had the experience of dealing with them.) Or maybe another way to frame my question is how much of the behavior you're deploring is just default 'old school mehalech' vs something intentionally inculcated?
"My ideal solution to this would be that every Rosh Yeshiva would need a supervisor, just like in Social Work."
So just like Social work, the Rosh Yeshiva should be supervised by... a senior Rosh Yeshiva? You are getting dangerously close to endorsing Daas Torah....
Supervision has nothing to with seniority and everything to do with accountability. It involves talking over what you are doing with someone else to have oversight, in order to obtain critiques and another's professional opinion. Even an experienced senior social worker requires a supervisor himself.
So yes, I would be ok with Daas Torah that followed that model...
I get the impression that you are looking for certain professional standards that would dissuade RYs from acting abusively (more than simple hearsay and potential loss of popularity would). But for that you need a central organization with professional standards and some sort of licensing and discipline process for RYs.
Talking over with somebody is not enough. I know somebody who worked for what he considered an abusive RY, and the RY constantly had meetings with him to talk stuff over, but never ever listened to his advice.
"I get the impression that you are looking for certain professional standards that would dissuade RYs from acting abusively (more than simple hearsay and potential loss of popularity would). But for that you need a central organization with professional standards and some sort of licensing and discipline process for RYs"
Halevai!!!!! That would be the ideal dream, and there's no reason the agudah or Torah Umesorah couldn't implement it.
Btw, this purpose of this post was not to bash chareidi institutions at all, but to pointout what can be a problem.
"there's no reason the agudah or Torah Umesorah couldn't implement it."
Ash, you and I both know that you're not exactly the naïve type. I'm very surprised to hear this sentence from you. You really think the Agudah or TM have the clout to tell the RYs how to operate their Yeshivos??
Ok, let's play this out. Not that I think he's "abusive", but imagine trying to wage such a campaign against REBW's Yeshiva. He's so big in the circle that he occupies, people would not really any attention to such a campaign. And even for elitist or yeshivishe Yeshivas where the Rosh Yeshiva is abusive, I don't think people would really care. There is a certain school of thought in the Yeshivishe velt where this is considered an acceptable and even preferred method of Chinuch, and many of the fathers of today's bochurim went through the same system. Can't see it happening.
In Israeli Yeshivos, it is accepted that Roshei Yeshiva do not make major decisions without discussing it with an elder Rosh Yeshiva. Rav Shteinman was the address for many years, and the reason he was considered Gadol Hador was because the ROshei Yeshiva of EY realized that he was a trustworthy person, who could listen to two sides and come to an intelligent decision, and then stand behind it.
But the idea that parents will prevent their children from going to certain Yeshivos sounds quaint. Once boys hit about the age of sixteen, the parents have precious little input any more.
The real Jewish way is with positivity and encouragement. That's what the Rebbe taught us.
He may have been accidentally partially right about the ADHD meds tbh. If you don't already have decent (non-pharmaceutical) adhd coping/management skills, adderall can just cause you to hyperfixate on things you shouldn't be doing and make you even less functional IME.
Also, tolerance and dependence are real. The effects will become weaker and weaker if you use it every day, then you ask for a higher dose, then eventually you end up depending on it just to get out of bed. Personally I take adderall no more than once or twice a week. I wish I could have told this to my younger self. (Of course, I'm only one datapoint and my experience may or may not generalize)
Just saw your disclaimer.
Hey Dov Ber, the plural of anecdote is not data. You are a rationalist, you should know that.
Adderall really helped me in Yeshiva. When I grew older, I found that hyperfixation can happen, but I lowered my dose to avoid it. I am now completely off medication as I learned coping skills, but in that helll of yeshiva I needed it.
Either way, it was completely inappropriate for the RY to make that decision especially since at the time it was really helping.
Almost everyone who spends some time in yeshiva unfortunately experiences this type of spiritual abuse at some point.
Have you ever watched shababnikim? They brilliantly portray this type of bad rosh yeshiva with the character of Rav Shpitzer.
Yes. The portrayal is excellent. I did feel though some of the acting could use some work, and the bochrims exploits, especially romantically, were really not authentic and felt out of touch.
I dont think this is as true in israeli yeshivot such as chevron (students there go on strike if a rav enters the dorms).
"(I am convinced that this RY is not a narcissist, as he expressed firm compassion to his talmidim many times - but he learnt this mehalach from his rebbe, who in my opinion undoubtedly was)."
I'm curious as to whether you see the trend as things getting worse, getting better, or staying the same. My sense is that there are a lot less elementary school rebbeim with anger management problems and a penchant for cruelty than there were a generation ago. (I'm not talking about molesters. I wouldn't know about that since I assume it goes on behind closed doors when it happens. I'm talking about the petty tyrants who are notorious among people who had the experience of dealing with them.) Or maybe another way to frame my question is how much of the behavior you're deploring is just default 'old school mehalech' vs something intentionally inculcated?
The trend is definitely getting better, no question.
Unfortunately, there are yeshivos where this is intentionally inculculated - both yeshivos are considered on the younger side.
"My ideal solution to this would be that every Rosh Yeshiva would need a supervisor, just like in Social Work."
So just like Social work, the Rosh Yeshiva should be supervised by... a senior Rosh Yeshiva? You are getting dangerously close to endorsing Daas Torah....
Supervision has nothing to with seniority and everything to do with accountability. It involves talking over what you are doing with someone else to have oversight, in order to obtain critiques and another's professional opinion. Even an experienced senior social worker requires a supervisor himself.
So yes, I would be ok with Daas Torah that followed that model...
I get the impression that you are looking for certain professional standards that would dissuade RYs from acting abusively (more than simple hearsay and potential loss of popularity would). But for that you need a central organization with professional standards and some sort of licensing and discipline process for RYs.
Talking over with somebody is not enough. I know somebody who worked for what he considered an abusive RY, and the RY constantly had meetings with him to talk stuff over, but never ever listened to his advice.
"I get the impression that you are looking for certain professional standards that would dissuade RYs from acting abusively (more than simple hearsay and potential loss of popularity would). But for that you need a central organization with professional standards and some sort of licensing and discipline process for RYs"
Halevai!!!!! That would be the ideal dream, and there's no reason the agudah or Torah Umesorah couldn't implement it.
Btw, this purpose of this post was not to bash chareidi institutions at all, but to pointout what can be a problem.
"there's no reason the agudah or Torah Umesorah couldn't implement it."
Ash, you and I both know that you're not exactly the naïve type. I'm very surprised to hear this sentence from you. You really think the Agudah or TM have the clout to tell the RYs how to operate their Yeshivos??
No. But there's a pretty simple way to implement it., and it involves a healthy amount of blackmail.
1) Expose some of the abuses that have taken place.
2) Explain we need to stop this - not to the RY but to the parents.
3) Have a massive advertising campaign why yeshivos need this supervision.
4) Make the parents not want to send to any yeshiva without it (this would be far easier than convincing RY).
Ok, let's play this out. Not that I think he's "abusive", but imagine trying to wage such a campaign against REBW's Yeshiva. He's so big in the circle that he occupies, people would not really any attention to such a campaign. And even for elitist or yeshivishe Yeshivas where the Rosh Yeshiva is abusive, I don't think people would really care. There is a certain school of thought in the Yeshivishe velt where this is considered an acceptable and even preferred method of Chinuch, and many of the fathers of today's bochurim went through the same system. Can't see it happening.
In Israeli Yeshivos, it is accepted that Roshei Yeshiva do not make major decisions without discussing it with an elder Rosh Yeshiva. Rav Shteinman was the address for many years, and the reason he was considered Gadol Hador was because the ROshei Yeshiva of EY realized that he was a trustworthy person, who could listen to two sides and come to an intelligent decision, and then stand behind it.
But the idea that parents will prevent their children from going to certain Yeshivos sounds quaint. Once boys hit about the age of sixteen, the parents have precious little input any more.
It's the fact that the abuse is justified because it's there to improve the person spiritually.