"In contrast, Modern Orthodox schools equate secular and kodesh studies in practice even if not in hashkafa, have no limits on parents or student bodies outside school hours, Zionism is stressed as a value, may be single-sex or coed, and Torah is a(n important) value among many others."
With Kushner as your strawman, you're making this too easy.
My Orthodox High School (oh, why am I being vague? I've mentioned it. JEC/RTMA) has limudei kodesh in the morning, forbids even attending a party with mixed dancing, and is very clear that Torah and Mitvzos are the definition of Jewish identity. Closer to Rabbi Lamm's Torah UMadda than Rabbi Schwab's Torah Im Derech Eretz (R' Schwab made the comparison himself, funny story there for another time) when it comes to secular studies, but I'm not even so sure of that. We did go to the Salute to Israel parade and had annoying nutjobs come talk about the importance of attending secular college in order to be an advocate for Israel, but that was an outside organization that's probably somebody's relative.
As for my elementary school (I don't know if that's come up before, so I'll be vague), it has a Jewish history class in middle school that covers Jewish history from the end of Tanach to the modern era. We had to write a report on a rishon or acharon (I did R' Hirsch).
One of my friends at TABC wrote a report on The Rav's Lonely Man of Faith for his twelfth grade chumash class, if I recall correctly.
And, because I'm being vague, I'll add that the "chareidi" kids in my neighborhood are just as messed up as the "modox" ones, and the latter don't seem so bad from my interactions with them as a substitute teacher (you know, the worst possible way to get to know a kid).
JEC is Modern Orthodoxy. Sorry, I'm pulling a King Louis.
There is a difference between what we may call Philosophical Modern Orthodoxy and Behavioral Modern Orthodoxy or ModOx. The former is the philosophical grounding of interactions with the outside world (and it is the outside world) that is, as Rabbi Lamm put it, “Halachically legitimate, philosophically persuasive, religiously inspiring, and personally convincing.” PMOs are 100% dedicated to Torah and mitzvos, and this includes the positive aspects of the outside world.
Behavioral Modern Orthodoxy does range from people who are barely shomer Shabbos to Rabbi Aharon Lichtenstein a"h. Maybe there isn't that kind of range in Chareidi (oh, how I loathe applying that word to the American Jewish community) schools, but what happens to the bottom half, then?
The question I have is, is there not a relationship between Philosophical Modern Orthodoxy - "..the positive aspects of the outside world" and Behavioral Modern Orthodoxy, in which almost any aspect of the outside world can righly or wrongly be justified by this philosophy (see Ash's note here https://substack.com/@daastorah/note/c-118174119)?
And there are no "behavioral Modern Orthodox" yeshivos. (All mockery of Kushner aside). They all want their students to live committed Torah lives, even if you and I might think they're going about it the wrong way.
And the ModOx you decry haven't "chosen a lifestyle" except in the negative sense of not choosing to have a lifestyle that reflects the core values of Modern Orthodox society.
You (and others) can 'recommend' changes untill the cows come home but you know as well as I do that reform of any aspect of chareidiland is verborten.
JEC students are at the top in any Beis Midrash they go to. KBY, Gush, Shaalvim, Mevaseret, etc. I don't know what if any of those will impress you. I have former classmates in Ner Israel and Shor Yashuv (ah, but those aren't real yeshivos) who didn't require any "mainstreaming" or "extra help." We had a new Rabbi with that kind of condescending attitude in 12th grade and ate him alive.
Phones and electronics are given in the entire duration of classes. They can be used at lunch.
Only school devices may be used during the school day.
The school's internet is filtered.
Outside of school, I guess you got me. There were classes that had "fight the schmutz" initiatives, but nothing school-wide that I recall and nothing in the student handbook.
We did have some guy talk about the dangers of pornography once. Not that it was ever defined. I'm sure some innocent gut thought "What is pornography? I guess I'll look that up when I get home."
As someone who was raised secular, I endorse this message. We tried a ModOx school for our boy BTW, and preferred in the end to send him to public school where at least they were ideologically consistent and had higher academic standards. If my faith were stronger, I might have made different choices.
You have correctly pointed out this fellow's lack of reading comprehension.
This is besides for his many laughably false allegations about the yeshivish community (like "They are taught that God...never forgives a sin"), and the completely deluded optimism he exudes about the secular world (like "Clearly, the non-Jewish world is more than aware of the issues the author raises, and is working hard on their own solutions"-yup, working hard. The solution will come out any day now).
Yeah, it's really inaccurate, bordering on lying, to conflate "never overlooks" with "never forgives". But maybe an OTD who forgot his learning could make that error?
I understand the temptation to take that quote from Mesilas Yesharim out of context, as the standard way to learn in most places would be inclined to do. But you ought to know it's wildly inconsistent with his intent in his discussion of zehirus, which just means be careful to make good choices. This is best expressed in the brilliant statement of the chovos halevavos, מן הזהירות שלא תרבה ליזהר. I.e., don't overdo it, which only undermines your ability to make your best long-term decisions for yourself with wisdom, foresight and maturity. I'm sorry if you've been taught an extremely narrow-minded and soul crushing distortion of his intent. All that line means is take life seriously. God doesn't just let things go but that does not mean He's out to get you, or makes a big deal out of small things. Your bank account, sadly, works precisely the same way. If you buy a coffee on the way to work, don't expect an email from your bank saying, we'll overlook this one and won't deduct the few bucks. Every penny will come out and, of course, every penny you earn will go in. The point is super simple. Be fiscally responsible and be spiritually responsible in the same sort of way. Ramchal makes that comparison explicitly and extensively.
I attended my daughter's high school graduation tonight from a bais yaakov School in a mainstream yeshivish community. Among other constant messages of positivity, the menahel quoted, I believe R' Dovid Feinstein (certainly someone in his immediate family) who said that learning to live like a "normal" person is pikuach nefesh.
You're still wrong about Mesilas Yesharim. That chapter is designed to motivate people to practice zehirus correctly. It is called How to Acquire Zehirus. The previous chapter, #3, breaks zehirus down into its elements so you can actually practice it (the chapter before that defines the principle). And in #3, he compares spiritual Zehirus to a wealthy merchant keeping his books. Your other source means nothing to me. Lots of sefarim are full of wrong things.
And BTW, Mesilas Yesharim in the first place is expressly intended for learning how to do more than is required. It should not be a source for what is expected, though I know it is universally presented that away. It's specifically about becoming a chasid and not "just" a tzadik. Yes, zehirus is in the part towards the beginning that deals with being a tzadik but the methodology he provides there is directed to the chasid, preparing him to progress being nekius into the realm of chasidus. Just setting the record straight.
I have trouble understanding how you went from thinking the same way to where you seem to be in a few years. Why not reject the bad places and find the good places? Why throw out God (I don't know if you did but you make it sound like it. If you're whole point here is you moved to MO because of this, you have my fullest respect for making a solid decision. I personally straddle both worlds) because a bunch of institutions turned rotten? It sounds like seeing how much awful junk food is sold and fed to people and deciding the heck with it. This is ridiculous. I'm just not eating any more.
But one can be fully orthodox while having nothing to do with rabbi Miller, the steipler, or the Musser movement. In my yeshiva we learned מחשבה such as Moreh Nevuchim, and Rav Kook. I live in Israel but there's more than one approach to orthodoxy. Some are healthier than others. One needs to be discerning.
And מאמרי חז"ל are generally not meant to be taken literally. עיין הקדמות הרמב"ם. It's hyperbole they used to drive home a message. If you don't like the לשון you can just move on.
This is not the primary reason I moved to Israel (which will always be its a mitzvah like any other and the only place the Jews as a people can fulfill their ultimate purpose as a nation) but it's a major benefit. Growing up in Toronto, the only school options were charedi schools which had all the problems you acknowledge, and modern orthodox schools which catered to students who weren't very serious about Torah, even if the rabbis were. I'm pretty sure the only places where there are people who have an ideology of full commitment to Torah and Halacha (on par with the haredim, not merely good for the modox community) as well as strong commitment to living in Israel either live in Israel (which would make sense since they value living there) or Washington Heights. And I wasn't moving to Washington Heights.
This is much better than the first for the reason you mentioned: It focuses on the positive of the Charedi world and the source of its success rather than on bashing the Modox world for one (admittedly major) flaw.
As a young parent being faced with this decision in the next 2 years, this sums up one of my biggest concerns with chareidi culture:
"We should not be expecting thirteen year old kids to live a life that was expected only of rabbis in the past. It is not the Torah that tells us to do this but our own twisted yeshivish culture that we need to fix."
I just can't do this to my child, especially after I went through it myself. I won't. That being said, your 2nd post made the truly convincing argument. I hold the value of raising my children to love Torah in the highest esteem, and you're right, the modox kids are living a barely performative Torah life. And yet, I can't go back to performing as a Chareidi woman myself. I'm hardly unique in this. The only solution I can conceive of thus far is the out of town diverse day school AND to infuse them with Torah at home as much as possible. Our community desperately needs to solve this.
Out of town can be an outstanding option. If you can make it work and find the right place, it's the best of both worlds. Definitely look into it. Large spectrum, too, from a Baltimore or Chicago to an Atlanta to a Phoenix, Arizona.
I know the author of that article and I agree with much if not all that was written but for different reasons The so called Gush derech in learning Tanach which is very popular but which has very dubious origins has hollowed out the learning of Ikarei Emunah which you only get from in depth learning of Chumash with the Gdolei HaMefarshim
I have always held the position that there is much that the Charedi and MO worlds could learn from and appreciate from each other . Where you send your kids to school is important but more important is that they emerge from the yeshiva system with a love and fire for Torah and Mitzvos thst even surpasses that of their parents
There are some excellent single gender schools in the MO world whose graduates are fine Bnei and.Bnos Torah and many go on to learn at RIETS and other yeshivos and while they appreciate the importance of a sovereign Jewish state as a hashkafic and Halachic reality they are very Mdakdek Bmitzvos and have a strong sense of Chashivus HaTorah as opposed to being reflexively Machmir or seeking to always be Meikil.
RIETS has a wide range of RY in terms of Derech HaLimud and hashkafa who are all Gdolei Torah and is unique in that its Talmidim certainly do not all wear hats and white shirts Rumors of its becoming Charedi remain rumors
The author of the quoted article who I know very well made a very valid point namely when you go into a Charedi elementary school in the U.S. you see pictures of Gdolim .Do MO schools have pictures of RYBS Rav Kook RHS or R M Willig ? If not why not?
How many 'lamdonim' properly understood the tumah/taharah sugyos?
In addition its not a question of lamdan or not. It's a question of time. If the biggest lamdan, learning a sugyah without hours available, doesn't have time to start looking up other rishonim when Rashi goes quiet (which happens very often) or there is a glaring problem with Rashi's peshat, what does he do. Artscroll notes point you to the right place.
'Tibetan Montessori school system"
my alma mater...class of 55....
"In contrast, Modern Orthodox schools equate secular and kodesh studies in practice even if not in hashkafa, have no limits on parents or student bodies outside school hours, Zionism is stressed as a value, may be single-sex or coed, and Torah is a(n important) value among many others."
With Kushner as your strawman, you're making this too easy.
My Orthodox High School (oh, why am I being vague? I've mentioned it. JEC/RTMA) has limudei kodesh in the morning, forbids even attending a party with mixed dancing, and is very clear that Torah and Mitvzos are the definition of Jewish identity. Closer to Rabbi Lamm's Torah UMadda than Rabbi Schwab's Torah Im Derech Eretz (R' Schwab made the comparison himself, funny story there for another time) when it comes to secular studies, but I'm not even so sure of that. We did go to the Salute to Israel parade and had annoying nutjobs come talk about the importance of attending secular college in order to be an advocate for Israel, but that was an outside organization that's probably somebody's relative.
As for my elementary school (I don't know if that's come up before, so I'll be vague), it has a Jewish history class in middle school that covers Jewish history from the end of Tanach to the modern era. We had to write a report on a rishon or acharon (I did R' Hirsch).
One of my friends at TABC wrote a report on The Rav's Lonely Man of Faith for his twelfth grade chumash class, if I recall correctly.
And, because I'm being vague, I'll add that the "chareidi" kids in my neighborhood are just as messed up as the "modox" ones, and the latter don't seem so bad from my interactions with them as a substitute teacher (you know, the worst possible way to get to know a kid).
JEC is the extreme rw of modoxy. And their learning is subpar and requires mainstreaming and extra help to go to a Chareidi Bes Medrash.
"JEC is the extreme rw of modoxy."
JEC is Modern Orthodoxy. Sorry, I'm pulling a King Louis.
There is a difference between what we may call Philosophical Modern Orthodoxy and Behavioral Modern Orthodoxy or ModOx. The former is the philosophical grounding of interactions with the outside world (and it is the outside world) that is, as Rabbi Lamm put it, “Halachically legitimate, philosophically persuasive, religiously inspiring, and personally convincing.” PMOs are 100% dedicated to Torah and mitzvos, and this includes the positive aspects of the outside world.
Behavioral Modern Orthodoxy does range from people who are barely shomer Shabbos to Rabbi Aharon Lichtenstein a"h. Maybe there isn't that kind of range in Chareidi (oh, how I loathe applying that word to the American Jewish community) schools, but what happens to the bottom half, then?
The question I have is, is there not a relationship between Philosophical Modern Orthodoxy - "..the positive aspects of the outside world" and Behavioral Modern Orthodoxy, in which almost any aspect of the outside world can righly or wrongly be justified by this philosophy (see Ash's note here https://substack.com/@daastorah/note/c-118174119)?
Is there not a relationship between the Yeshiva world and the good-for-nothing bums smoking in the back?
There definitely is!
And does that mean the Yeshiva world is comprised of good-for-nothing smokers, except for the extreme RW (respectable wing) Yeshivish?
Ooh burn
C'mon!
There are no 'GFN smokers' Yeshivos, nobody chooses that lifestyle, and there is nothing about them that reflects on the core values of the society.
And there are no "behavioral Modern Orthodox" yeshivos. (All mockery of Kushner aside). They all want their students to live committed Torah lives, even if you and I might think they're going about it the wrong way.
And the ModOx you decry haven't "chosen a lifestyle" except in the negative sense of not choosing to have a lifestyle that reflects the core values of Modern Orthodox society.
"I would recommend reforming".
You (and others) can 'recommend' changes untill the cows come home but you know as well as I do that reform of any aspect of chareidiland is verborten.
HOLD ME BACK!!!!!
JEC students are at the top in any Beis Midrash they go to. KBY, Gush, Shaalvim, Mevaseret, etc. I don't know what if any of those will impress you. I have former classmates in Ner Israel and Shor Yashuv (ah, but those aren't real yeshivos) who didn't require any "mainstreaming" or "extra help." We had a new Rabbi with that kind of condescending attitude in 12th grade and ate him alive.
How's JECs internet policies?
Phones and electronics are given in the entire duration of classes. They can be used at lunch.
Only school devices may be used during the school day.
The school's internet is filtered.
Outside of school, I guess you got me. There were classes that had "fight the schmutz" initiatives, but nothing school-wide that I recall and nothing in the student handbook.
We did have some guy talk about the dangers of pornography once. Not that it was ever defined. I'm sure some innocent gut thought "What is pornography? I guess I'll look that up when I get home."
This is a sad joke, unfortunately.
What's your kid's school's policies regarding drugs, alcohol, and smoking?
No tolerance for the first and third. Alcohol would be tolerated on shabbos.
As someone who was raised secular, I endorse this message. We tried a ModOx school for our boy BTW, and preferred in the end to send him to public school where at least they were ideologically consistent and had higher academic standards. If my faith were stronger, I might have made different choices.
You have correctly pointed out this fellow's lack of reading comprehension.
This is besides for his many laughably false allegations about the yeshivish community (like "They are taught that God...never forgives a sin"), and the completely deluded optimism he exudes about the secular world (like "Clearly, the non-Jewish world is more than aware of the issues the author raises, and is working hard on their own solutions"-yup, working hard. The solution will come out any day now).
Yeah, it's really inaccurate, bordering on lying, to conflate "never overlooks" with "never forgives". But maybe an OTD who forgot his learning could make that error?
I understand the temptation to take that quote from Mesilas Yesharim out of context, as the standard way to learn in most places would be inclined to do. But you ought to know it's wildly inconsistent with his intent in his discussion of zehirus, which just means be careful to make good choices. This is best expressed in the brilliant statement of the chovos halevavos, מן הזהירות שלא תרבה ליזהר. I.e., don't overdo it, which only undermines your ability to make your best long-term decisions for yourself with wisdom, foresight and maturity. I'm sorry if you've been taught an extremely narrow-minded and soul crushing distortion of his intent. All that line means is take life seriously. God doesn't just let things go but that does not mean He's out to get you, or makes a big deal out of small things. Your bank account, sadly, works precisely the same way. If you buy a coffee on the way to work, don't expect an email from your bank saying, we'll overlook this one and won't deduct the few bucks. Every penny will come out and, of course, every penny you earn will go in. The point is super simple. Be fiscally responsible and be spiritually responsible in the same sort of way. Ramchal makes that comparison explicitly and extensively.
I attended my daughter's high school graduation tonight from a bais yaakov School in a mainstream yeshivish community. Among other constant messages of positivity, the menahel quoted, I believe R' Dovid Feinstein (certainly someone in his immediate family) who said that learning to live like a "normal" person is pikuach nefesh.
You're still wrong about Mesilas Yesharim. That chapter is designed to motivate people to practice zehirus correctly. It is called How to Acquire Zehirus. The previous chapter, #3, breaks zehirus down into its elements so you can actually practice it (the chapter before that defines the principle). And in #3, he compares spiritual Zehirus to a wealthy merchant keeping his books. Your other source means nothing to me. Lots of sefarim are full of wrong things.
And BTW, Mesilas Yesharim in the first place is expressly intended for learning how to do more than is required. It should not be a source for what is expected, though I know it is universally presented that away. It's specifically about becoming a chasid and not "just" a tzadik. Yes, zehirus is in the part towards the beginning that deals with being a tzadik but the methodology he provides there is directed to the chasid, preparing him to progress being nekius into the realm of chasidus. Just setting the record straight.
I have trouble understanding how you went from thinking the same way to where you seem to be in a few years. Why not reject the bad places and find the good places? Why throw out God (I don't know if you did but you make it sound like it. If you're whole point here is you moved to MO because of this, you have my fullest respect for making a solid decision. I personally straddle both worlds) because a bunch of institutions turned rotten? It sounds like seeing how much awful junk food is sold and fed to people and deciding the heck with it. This is ridiculous. I'm just not eating any more.
But one can be fully orthodox while having nothing to do with rabbi Miller, the steipler, or the Musser movement. In my yeshiva we learned מחשבה such as Moreh Nevuchim, and Rav Kook. I live in Israel but there's more than one approach to orthodoxy. Some are healthier than others. One needs to be discerning.
And מאמרי חז"ל are generally not meant to be taken literally. עיין הקדמות הרמב"ם. It's hyperbole they used to drive home a message. If you don't like the לשון you can just move on.
This is a ridiculously stupid argument. Kids are exposed to a lot worse than the steipler in the secular world. (Think Ye and the Kardashians).
This is not the primary reason I moved to Israel (which will always be its a mitzvah like any other and the only place the Jews as a people can fulfill their ultimate purpose as a nation) but it's a major benefit. Growing up in Toronto, the only school options were charedi schools which had all the problems you acknowledge, and modern orthodox schools which catered to students who weren't very serious about Torah, even if the rabbis were. I'm pretty sure the only places where there are people who have an ideology of full commitment to Torah and Halacha (on par with the haredim, not merely good for the modox community) as well as strong commitment to living in Israel either live in Israel (which would make sense since they value living there) or Washington Heights. And I wasn't moving to Washington Heights.
This is much better than the first for the reason you mentioned: It focuses on the positive of the Charedi world and the source of its success rather than on bashing the Modox world for one (admittedly major) flaw.
Great article! (I thought that your couple most recent ones had much to be desired TBH). Very similar to my personal observations and conclusions.
Was the Pearls Before Swine in any way relevant? Even if not, it's so true
I'm sorry, but that's a joke. It's sad.
As a young parent being faced with this decision in the next 2 years, this sums up one of my biggest concerns with chareidi culture:
"We should not be expecting thirteen year old kids to live a life that was expected only of rabbis in the past. It is not the Torah that tells us to do this but our own twisted yeshivish culture that we need to fix."
I just can't do this to my child, especially after I went through it myself. I won't. That being said, your 2nd post made the truly convincing argument. I hold the value of raising my children to love Torah in the highest esteem, and you're right, the modox kids are living a barely performative Torah life. And yet, I can't go back to performing as a Chareidi woman myself. I'm hardly unique in this. The only solution I can conceive of thus far is the out of town diverse day school AND to infuse them with Torah at home as much as possible. Our community desperately needs to solve this.
Out of town can be an outstanding option. If you can make it work and find the right place, it's the best of both worlds. Definitely look into it. Large spectrum, too, from a Baltimore or Chicago to an Atlanta to a Phoenix, Arizona.
I know the author of that article and I agree with much if not all that was written but for different reasons The so called Gush derech in learning Tanach which is very popular but which has very dubious origins has hollowed out the learning of Ikarei Emunah which you only get from in depth learning of Chumash with the Gdolei HaMefarshim
Odd, for me it was mechazek my Emunah and restored my geshmak in learning
I think it is very dry and devoid of any means of enhancing Emunah .
And I love it. You don't like it, don't learn it.
I have always held the position that there is much that the Charedi and MO worlds could learn from and appreciate from each other . Where you send your kids to school is important but more important is that they emerge from the yeshiva system with a love and fire for Torah and Mitzvos thst even surpasses that of their parents
There are some excellent single gender schools in the MO world whose graduates are fine Bnei and.Bnos Torah and many go on to learn at RIETS and other yeshivos and while they appreciate the importance of a sovereign Jewish state as a hashkafic and Halachic reality they are very Mdakdek Bmitzvos and have a strong sense of Chashivus HaTorah as opposed to being reflexively Machmir or seeking to always be Meikil.
RIETS has a wide range of RY in terms of Derech HaLimud and hashkafa who are all Gdolei Torah and is unique in that its Talmidim certainly do not all wear hats and white shirts Rumors of its becoming Charedi remain rumors
Unfortunately I think REITS is going chareidi. Rav Shachter is quite similar to the moderate American Chareidi derech.
What happened with this https://shalomvaemes.substack.com/
He deleted it. I'll repost it when I can.
The author of the quoted article who I know very well made a very valid point namely when you go into a Charedi elementary school in the U.S. you see pictures of Gdolim .Do MO schools have pictures of RYBS Rav Kook RHS or R M Willig ? If not why not?
How many 'lamdonim' properly understood the tumah/taharah sugyos?
In addition its not a question of lamdan or not. It's a question of time. If the biggest lamdan, learning a sugyah without hours available, doesn't have time to start looking up other rishonim when Rashi goes quiet (which happens very often) or there is a glaring problem with Rashi's peshat, what does he do. Artscroll notes point you to the right place.